Discussion:
The moral bankruptcy of America in 2005...[was Re: Looks like Dean has it about right - War is a Racket...[was Re: Dummycrat Howard Dean on Iraq (True Leadership)
(too old to reply)
Michael O'Neill
2005-12-08 10:48:21 UTC
Permalink
Vince Brannigan wrote:

<snip>
From a purely legal point of view
the Congressional joint resolution is
more than adequate to establish the
facial legal validity of the Iraq war.
(a) AUTHORIZATION. The President
is authorized to use the Armed Forces
of the United States as he determines
to be necessary and appropriate in
order to
(1) defend the national security
of the United States against the
continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United
Nations Security Council
Resolutions regarding Iraq.
Vince
I accept your point in principle Vince, however...

(i) the threat to America at 9-11 did not come from without. There was no
vast flotilla of planes or boats or platoons of armed personnel
approaching over land bridges. The threat came from personnel already
within America and at least one of the persons involved [Mohammed Atta]
was known to high level officers in the American Military. The presence
of the Venice cadre of terrorists was known to the FBI, who appeared on
the doorstep of their apartment less than 6 hours after the event.
Despite this, the term "defend the national security" did not inspire a
root and branch review of every person in the United States, their
origins, level of armament and their intent. It resulted in the
invasion of two countries, one of which was a fractured political
entity, Afghanistan, part of whose population were in thrall to the
Taliban, a political-religious group who until the previous summer had
been in negotiation with America for the building of an oil pipeline
across territory they controlled. The putative reason here was the
harbouring of Osama Bin Laden, the alleged leader of Al-Q'ida, a man with
a kidney complaint who had been been visited at a hospital in Dubai by
the local CIA officer the previous summer. Although there was no direct
link shown at any stage between Osama Bin Laden and Al-Q'ida at any
stage, although there was evidence that he was under CIA instruction,
American invaded Afghanistan.

(ii) the term "relevant" is itself relevant. The driving force behind the
invasion of Iraq was the removal of the alleged threat of Saddam's
regime to western countries using WMDs. Hyped by the previous
administration, this threat was stated [by Colin Powell in his address to
the United Nations] to include vast tonnages of chemical weapons and huge
numbers of other forms of weapons of mass destruction, the locations of
the factories known and shown on photographs, with the allegedly
imminent threat of nuclear strikes in capital cities of western Europe
and America. Although mentioned in Presidential speeches about Al-Q'ida,
there was no proof offered of any involvement by Iraq in 9-11. Yet
interviewed American citizens had, by the end of a year after 9-11 had
formed an opinion that Iraq was somehow involved. Two separate
investigations, one led by Hans Blix before the invasion, one led by
David Kay after the invasion, found no chemical weapons, no WMDs of
other kinds. Moreover, apart from some paper statements and diagrams
there was no extant nuclear programme. The alleged purchase of Yellowcake
from Niger was shown to be based on crude paper forgeries with no person
available to testify to back it up. An investigation by a high-level
American official [Wilson] before the invasion confirmed this. Take away
WMDs and the UN Resolution becomes IRRELEVANT, the actions sanctioned by
it becoming unlawful use of force against a sovereign country which had
not threatened America.

Its very simple.

a) Defend America?

No problem. Good luck to America, she's already riddled with spies and
fifth columnists, some of whom are obviously influencing government. She
has a hard job ahead of her. The last thing America should do is view
her people as assets, the providers of a tax base with which to finance
foreign wars. The founding fathers sought to escape that kind of European
mentality. I suggest America develops community policing, and invests the
money she is spending on war to improve health, education and welfare
provision, that she begins to look after her people, instead of allowing
her security forces to import drugs with which to decimate the
populations of her inner cities and small towns. Otherwise she fails of
her promise and destroys her greatest wealth, her people.


b) Invade Iraq?

WMDs = basis for war.
No WMDs - no basis for war.

America had no legitimate reason for the invasion. She should stay at
home and not have her security forces put petty dictators in government,
then she wouldn't have any Saddams to worry about. Oh but what would be
her reasons for foreign adventuring then, ehhh? What indeed...


c) Expand the theatre of operations to include Iran, North Korea?

America should Defend her borders, increase her security, stay out of
other countries. America doesn't own the world and where she breaks
international law and visits atrocities on an already oppressed
population, whose oppression was made worse by American led sanctions for
a decade, and who was subject to the rule of an American-supported
strongman, than she will be held to account. As it is, American
credibility as the upholder and defender of Freedom and Democracy has
been hugely challenged by events leading up to, during and after her
ongoing foreign adventures in the Middle East and Eastern Europe.

d) Use of Torture and Internment without Trial in COncentration Camps

Previously vilified as an action of Germany during WWII, the use of
internment without trial in concentration camps against an oppressed
population or ethnic sub-group was invented by the British in the Boer
War in the nineteenth century. The British again used it against Northern
Irish Nationals during the Troubles. America is now using it against
Muslims. The kidnapping and holding without trial of foreign nationals in
Guantanamo Bay after their incarceration in Afghanistan, Iraq and in
intermediate countries to avoid laws on torture being broken in America
is well documented.

http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/legal/september_11th/docs/Guantanamo_composite_statement_FINAL.pdf


The use of former soviet block countries, Egypt and European countries as
holding and/or torturing camps is deplored. The use of Shannon Airport in
the Republic of Ireland to transport illegally detained prisoners is not
acceptable.

M.
Michael O'Neill
2005-12-08 12:50:10 UTC
Permalink
Falcon wrote:

<snip>
There isn't a debate in progress.
People come here for debate, fool.
I've pointed out what I consider to be an
error in your reasoning and you have
chosen to ignore it.
I have provided my proofs, known to all the
world over who have a TV and YOU have chosen
to ignore THEM, fool.
All I can see now is a paranoid conspiracy
theorist trying to ram home the message that
international terrorism and the war in Iraq
is some sort of covert American
plan for world domination, by re-posting
the same mindless drivel over and
over again.
Take your head out of your ass, respond to my post
and perhaps you'll see more, or have a Damascene moment.
I have to say that having seen the
same thing posted at least four times,
it seems to me that you obviously have
nothing more to offer to 'the
debate' - and the next logical step is
to kill-file the thread and move on.
The repeat posts to people who then snip and run
underlines that my posts have merit, and you and
your fellow treavllers have none.

Feel free to be left out of it of that's what
you want, poster-boi for death dealing bigots.

But the fact remains that I'm IN the debate,
while you've offered nothing to it.

Deal with that.

Anf while you're at it, answer EVERY RELEVANT POINT IN THIS OR BE
CONDEMNED AS A TROLL ALL OVER USENET.

Fool.

<unmarked deletion restored>

==============================================
GO BACK TO POWELL'S DETALIED PRESENTATION TO THE UN!

DID HE TALK ABOUT MOBILE FUCKING CHIP VANS? DID HE?

NO HE FUCKING WELL DIDN'T, YOU FUCKING MUPPET!

He quoted tonnages of chemical weapons, such large tonnages that they
couldn't have been whisked away in the dead of night by a whole FLEET of
turbo-charged fucking chip vans.

And Blix couldn't find one iota of evidence to back up Powells grandiose
claims.

But the naysayers in your camp still bleated, "we'll find 'em, we'll find
'em - David Kay will suss them out".

But David Kay didn't and eventually resigned crestfallen.

And you of course, you unmitigated fuckwit, are trying to hide behind
what lies the Public were told. Even in this morass of deception there
was inconsistencies anyone looking could see.

Lookit, there was one photpgraph of a chemical weapons factory doing the
rounds on the internet, a before and after shot, claiming that the
installation had been extended.

You didn't neet an architect to tell you that the second [larger] shot
was a close up of the first! And the same installation can be seen behind
Powell during his presentation to the UN!

That's why people knew beforehand, even from the public record.

Blatantly Manufactured Evidence [BME] speaks for itself.

But of course Bush and Blair knew far more than this, particularly about
the Yellowcake lies. The recent revelations on Yellowcake alone give the
lie to your assertion that people in positions of powere didn't know
anyhing. And there is no doubt further private evidence to come out.

You have no defense in this argument, TROLL.

M.
2005-12-08 13:17:09 UTC
Permalink
Karl Rove's White House " Murder Inc. ".

Ariel Sharon's & Karl Rove's White House " Assassinations Inc. " !!!

Neocon's SOCOM @ "OSP" .

"The significance of this masterpiece is not only the divulsion of facts,
but the focus it's made on the covert cooperation between the parties who
are enemies...., thanks to the organized " Smear Campaign by ..X..?,
and the deliberate resonance it received in Damascus..... "

http://www.abcnorio.org/pcgi-bin/boards/housing/robboard.cgi?action=display&num=71

Special Investigation.

DEC., 2005- On September 15, 2001, just four days after the 9-11 attacks,
CIA Director George Tenet provided President [sic] Bush with a Top Secret
"Worldwide Attack Matrix"-a virtual license to kill targets deemed to be a
threat to the United States in some 80 countries around the world. The Tenet
plan, which was subsequently approved by Bush, essentially reversed the
executive orders of four previous U.S. administrations that expressly
prohibited political assassinations.

According to high level European intelligence officials, Bush's counselor,
Karl Rove, used the new presidential authority to silence a popular Lebanese
Christian politician who was planning to offer irrefutable evidence that
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon authorized the massacre of hundreds of
Palestinian men, women, and children in the Beirut refugee camps of Sabra
and Shatilla in 1982. In addition, Sharon provided the Lebanese forces who
carried out the grisly task. At the time of the massacres, Elie Hobeika was
intelligence chief of Lebanese Christian forces in Lebanon who were battling
Palestinians and other Muslim groups in a bloody civil war. He was also the
chief liaison to Israeli Defense Force (IDF) personnel in Lebanon. An
official Israeli inquiry into the massacre at the camps, the Kahan
Commission, merely found Sharon "indirectly" responsible for the slaughter
and fingered Hobeika as the chief instigator.

The Kahan Commission never called on Hobeika to offer testimony in his
defense. However, in response to charges brought against Sharon before a
special war crimes court in Belgium, Hobeika was urged to testify against
Sharon, according to well-informed Lebanese sources. Hobeika was prepared to
offer a different version of events than what was contained in the Kahan
report. A 1993 Belgian law permitting human rights prosecutions was unusual
in that non-Belgians could be tried for violations against other
non-Belgians in a Belgian court. Under pressure from the Bush
administration, the law was severely amended and the extra territoriality
provisions were curtailed.

Hobeika headed the Lebanese forces intelligence agency since the mid- 1970s
and he soon developed close ties to the CIA. He was a frequent visitor to
the CIA's headquarters at Langley, Virginia. After the Syrian invasion of
Lebanon in 1990, Hobeika held a number of cabinet positions in the Lebanese
government, a proxy for the Syrian occupation authorities. He also served in
the parliament. In July 2001, Hobeika called a press conference and
announced he was prepared to testify against Sharon in Belgium and revealed
that he had evidence of what actually occurred in Sabra and Shatilla.
Hobeika also indicated that Israel had flown members of the South Lebanon
Army (SLA) into Beirut International Airport in an Israeli Air Force C130
transport plane, in full view of dozens of witnesses, including members of
the Lebanese army and others. SLA troops under the command of Major Saad
Haddad were slipped into the camps to commit the massacres. The SLA troops
were under the direct command of Ariel Sharon and an Israeli Mossad agent
provocateur named Rafi Eitan. Hobeika offered evidence that a former U.S.
ambassador to Lebanon was aware of the Israeli plot. In addition, the IDF
had placed a camera in a strategic position to film the Sabra and Shatilla
massacres. Hobeika was going to ask that the footage be released as part of
the investigation of Sharon.

After announcing he was willing to testify against Sharon, Hobeika became
fearful for his safety and began moves to leave Lebanon. Hobeika was not
aware that his threats to testify against Sharon had triggered a series of
fateful events that reached well into the White House and Sharon's office.

On January 24, 2002, Hobeika's car was blown up by a remote controlled bomb
placed in a parked Mercedes along a street in the Hazmieh section of Beirut.
The bomb exploded when Hobeika and his three associates, Fares Souweidan,
Mitri Ajram, and Waleed Zein, were driving their Range Rover past the
TNT-laden Mercedes at 9:40 am Beirut time. The Range Rover's four passengers
were killed in the explosion. In case Hobeika's car had taken another route

through the neighborhood, two additional parked cars, located at two other
choke points, were also rigged with TNT. The powerful bomb wounded a number
of other people on the street. Other parked cars were destroyed and
buildings and homes were damaged. The Lebanese president, prime minister,
and interior minister all claimed that Israeli agents were behind the
attack.

It is noteworthy that the State Department's list of global terrorist
incidents for 2002 worldwide failed to list the car bombing attack on
Hobeika and his party. The White House wanted to ensure the attack was
censored from the report. The reason was simple: the attack ultimately had
Washington's fingerprints on it.

High level European intelligence sources now report that Karl Rove
personally coordinated Hobeika's assassination. The hit on Hobeika employed
Syrian intelligence agents. Syrian President Bashar Assad was trying to
curry favor with the Bush administration in the aftermath of 9-11 and was
more than willing to help the White House. In addition, Assad's father,
Hafez Assad, had been an ally of Bush's father during Desert Storm, a period
that saw Washington give a "wink and a nod" to Syria's occupation of
Lebanon. Rove wanted to help Sharon avoid any political embarrassment from
an in absentia trial in Brussels where Hobeika would be a star witness. Rove
and Sharon agreed on the plan to use Syrian Military Intelligence agents to
assassinate Hobeika. Rove saw Sharon as an indispensable ally of Bush in
ensuring the loyalty of the Christian evangelical and Jewish voting blocs in
the United States. Sharon saw the plan to have the United States coordinate
the hit as a way to mask all connections to Jerusalem.

The Syrian hit team was ordered by Assef Shawkat, the number two man in
Syrian military intelligence and a good friend and brother in law of Syrian
President Bashar Assad. Assad's intelligence services had already cooperated
with U.S. intelligence in resorting to unconventional methods to extract
information from al Qaeda detainees deported to Syria from the United States
and other countries in the wake of 9-11. The order to take out Hobeika was
transmitted by Shawkat to Roustom Ghazali, the head of Syrian military
intelligence in Beirut. Ghazali arranged for the three remote controlled
cars to be parked along Hobeika's route in Hazmieh; only few hundred yards
from the Barracks of Syrian Special Forces which are stationed in the area
near the Presidential palace , the ministry of Defense and various
Government and officers quarters . This particular area is covered 24/7 by a
very sophisticated USA multi-agency surveillance system to monitor Syrian
and Lebanese security activities and is a " Choice " area to live in for its
perceived high security, [Courtesy of the Special Collections Services.]
SCS...; CIA & NSA & DIA....etc.

The plan to kill Hobeika had all the necessary caveats and built-in denial
mechanisms. If the Syrians were discovered beforehand or afterwards, Karl
Rove and his associates in the Pentagon's Office of Special Plans would be
ensured plausible deniability.

Hobeika's CIA intermediary in Beirut, a man only referred to as "Jason" by
Hobeika, was a frequent companion of the Lebanese politician during official
and off-duty hours. During Hobeika's election campaigns for his
parliamentary seat, Jason was often in Hobeika's office offering support and
advice. After Hobeika's assassination, Jason became despondent over the
death of his colleague. Eventually, Jason disappeared abruptly from Lebanon
and reportedly later emerged in Pakistan.

Karl Rove's involvement in the assassination of Hobeika may not have been
the last "hit" he ordered to help out Sharon. In March 2002, a few months
after Hobeika's assassination, another Lebanese Christian with knowledge of
Sharon's involvement in the Sabra and Shatilla massacres was gunned down
along with his wife in Sao Paulo, Brazil. A bullet fired at Michael Nassar's
car flattened one of his tires. Nassar pulled into a gasoline station for
repairs. A professional assassin, firing a gun with a silencer, shot Nassar
and his wife in the head, killing them both instantly. The assailant fled
and was never captured. Nassar was also involved with the Phalange militia
at Sabra and Shatilla. Nassar was also reportedly willing to testify against
Sharon in Belgium and, as a nephew of SLA Commander General Antoine Lahd,
may have had important evidence to bolster Hobeika's charge that Sharon
ordered SLA forces into the camps to wipe out the Palestinians.

Based on what European intelligence claims is concrete intelligence on
Rove's involvement in the assassination of Hobeika, the Bush administration
can now add political assassination to its laundry list of other misdeeds,
from lying about the reasons to go to war to the torture tactics in
violation of the Geneva Conventions that have been employed by the Pentagon
and "third country" nationals at prisons in Iraq , Guantanamo Bay,
Morocco, and various East European locations, among others....


It is noteworthy that the State Department's list of global terrorist
incidents for 2002 worldwide failed to list the car bombing attack on
Hobeika and his party.... But Listed a small Hand Grenade thrown at
a U.S. franchise....? The White House wanted to ensure the attack was
censored from the report. The reason was simple: the attack ultimately had
Washington's fingerprints on it....


This is some of the evidence for you and for the World .... article=1052
*******************************************************************************
~encrypted/logs/access ====>> INTELLIGENCE Agencies Servers footprints.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Not to mention hundreds of private companies and governments........!
See Below :
*******************************************************************************

Lines 10-36 of my logfiles show a lot of interest in this article: =1052

# grep sid=1052 /encrypted/logs/access_log|awk '{print$1,$7}'|sed-n'10,36p'.
spb-213-33-248-190.sovintel.ru /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Soviet/Russian Intelligence services...
ext1.shape.nato.int /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
NATO Intel.
server1.namsa.nato.int /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Nato Intel.
ns1.saclantc.nato.int /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Strategic Air Command US Intel.
bxlproxyb.europarl.eu.int /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
European Parliament Intel. Unit
wdcsun18.usdoj.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
USA Department of Justice...
wdcsun21.usdoj.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
USA Department of Justice...
tcs-gateway11.treas.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
USA Treasury Department
tcs-gateway13.treas.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
USA Treasury Department
relay1.ucia.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
CIA Langley
relay2.cia.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
CIA Langley
relay2.ucia.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
CIA Langley
n021.dhs.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
USA Department of Homeland security Intel.
legion.dera.gov.uk /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
British Intel.
gateway-fincen.uscg.mil /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Pentagon US.
crawler2.googlebot.com /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Intel....
crawler1.googlebot.com /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Intel.....
gateway101.gsi.gov.uk /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
British Intel.
gate11-quantico.nmci.usmc.mil /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
USA Marine Corps Quantico Virginia Intel.
gate13-quantico.nmci.usmc.mil /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
USA Marine Corps Quantico Virginia Intel.
fw1-a.osis.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
US Intel SIS.
crawler13.googlebot.com /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Intel....
fw1-b.osis.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
US Intel. OSIS.
bouncer.nics.gov.uk /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
British Intel.
beluha.ssu.gov.ua /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Ukrainian Intelligence.
zukprxpro02.zreo.compaq.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052....
Intel....

"The significance of this masterpiece is not only the divulsion of facts,
but the focus it's made on the covert cooperation between the parties who
are playing enemies.... " At the very Least in Lebanon since the 1970s...!!!
Nusrat Rizvi, Rowayton Connecticut
2005-12-08 13:23:55 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 14:17:09 +0100, "." <.> wrote:

Usual nauseating Arab/Muslim claptrap.
Post by
Karl Rove's White House " Murder Inc. ".
Ariel Sharon's & Karl Rove's White House " Assassinations Inc. " !!!
"The significance of this masterpiece is not only the divulsion of facts,
but the focus it's made on the covert cooperation between the parties who
are enemies...., thanks to the organized " Smear Campaign by ..X..?,
and the deliberate resonance it received in Damascus..... "
2005-12-08 13:26:08 UTC
Permalink
Karl Rove's White House " Murder Inc. ".

Ariel Sharon's & Karl Rove's White House " Assassinations Inc. " !!!

Neocon's SOCOM @ "OSP" .

"The significance of this masterpiece is not only the divulsion of facts,
but the focus it's made on the covert cooperation between the parties who
are enemies...., thanks to the organized " Smear Campaign by ..X..?,
and the deliberate resonance it received in Damascus..... "


http://www.abcnorio.org/pcgi-bin/boards/housing/robboard.cgi?action=display&num=162


http://www.abcnorio.org/pcgi-bin/boards/housing/robboard.cgi?action=display&num=71

Special Investigation.

DEC., 2005- On September 15, 2001, just four days after the 9-11 attacks,
CIA Director George Tenet provided President [sic] Bush with a Top Secret
"Worldwide Attack Matrix"-a virtual license to kill targets deemed to be a
threat to the United States in some 80 countries around the world. The Tenet
plan, which was subsequently approved by Bush, essentially reversed the
executive orders of four previous U.S. administrations that expressly
prohibited political assassinations.

According to high level European intelligence officials, Bush's counselor,
Karl Rove, used the new presidential authority to silence a popular Lebanese
Christian politician who was planning to offer irrefutable evidence that
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon authorized the massacre of hundreds of
Palestinian men, women, and children in the Beirut refugee camps of Sabra
and Shatilla in 1982. In addition, Sharon provided the Lebanese forces who
carried out the grisly task. At the time of the massacres, Elie Hobeika was
intelligence chief of Lebanese Christian forces in Lebanon who were battling
Palestinians and other Muslim groups in a bloody civil war. He was also the
chief liaison to Israeli Defense Force (IDF) personnel in Lebanon. An
official Israeli inquiry into the massacre at the camps, the Kahan
Commission, merely found Sharon "indirectly" responsible for the slaughter
and fingered Hobeika as the chief instigator.

The Kahan Commission never called on Hobeika to offer testimony in his
defense. However, in response to charges brought against Sharon before a
special war crimes court in Belgium, Hobeika was urged to testify against
Sharon, according to well-informed Lebanese sources. Hobeika was prepared to
offer a different version of events than what was contained in the Kahan
report. A 1993 Belgian law permitting human rights prosecutions was unusual
in that non-Belgians could be tried for violations against other
non-Belgians in a Belgian court. Under pressure from the Bush
administration, the law was severely amended and the extra territoriality
provisions were curtailed.

Hobeika headed the Lebanese forces intelligence agency since the mid- 1970s
and he soon developed close ties to the CIA. He was a frequent visitor to
the CIA's headquarters at Langley, Virginia. After the Syrian invasion of
Lebanon in 1990, Hobeika held a number of cabinet positions in the Lebanese
government, a proxy for the Syrian occupation authorities. He also served in
the parliament. In July 2001, Hobeika called a press conference and
announced he was prepared to testify against Sharon in Belgium and revealed
that he had evidence of what actually occurred in Sabra and Shatilla.
Hobeika also indicated that Israel had flown members of the South Lebanon
Army (SLA) into Beirut International Airport in an Israeli Air Force C130
transport plane, in full view of dozens of witnesses, including members of
the Lebanese army and others. SLA troops under the command of Major Saad
Haddad were slipped into the camps to commit the massacres. The SLA troops
were under the direct command of Ariel Sharon and an Israeli Mossad agent
provocateur named Rafi Eitan. Hobeika offered evidence that a former U.S.
ambassador to Lebanon was aware of the Israeli plot. In addition, the IDF
had placed a camera in a strategic position to film the Sabra and Shatilla
massacres. Hobeika was going to ask that the footage be released as part of
the investigation of Sharon.

After announcing he was willing to testify against Sharon, Hobeika became
fearful for his safety and began moves to leave Lebanon. Hobeika was not
aware that his threats to testify against Sharon had triggered a series of
fateful events that reached well into the White House and Sharon's office.

On January 24, 2002, Hobeika's car was blown up by a remote controlled bomb
placed in a parked Mercedes along a street in the Hazmieh section of Beirut.
The bomb exploded when Hobeika and his three associates, Fares Souweidan,
Mitri Ajram, and Waleed Zein, were driving their Range Rover past the
TNT-laden Mercedes at 9:40 am Beirut time. The Range Rover's four passengers
were killed in the explosion. In case Hobeika's car had taken another route

through the neighborhood, two additional parked cars, located at two other
choke points, were also rigged with TNT. The powerful bomb wounded a number
of other people on the street. Other parked cars were destroyed and
buildings and homes were damaged. The Lebanese president, prime minister,
and interior minister all claimed that Israeli agents were behind the
attack.

It is noteworthy that the State Department's list of global terrorist
incidents for 2002 worldwide failed to list the car bombing attack on
Hobeika and his party. The White House wanted to ensure the attack was
censored from the report. The reason was simple: the attack ultimately had
Washington's fingerprints on it.

High level European intelligence sources now report that Karl Rove
personally coordinated Hobeika's assassination. The hit on Hobeika employed
Syrian intelligence agents. Syrian President Bashar Assad was trying to
curry favor with the Bush administration in the aftermath of 9-11 and was
more than willing to help the White House. In addition, Assad's father,
Hafez Assad, had been an ally of Bush's father during Desert Storm, a period
that saw Washington give a "wink and a nod" to Syria's occupation of
Lebanon. Rove wanted to help Sharon avoid any political embarrassment from
an in absentia trial in Brussels where Hobeika would be a star witness. Rove
and Sharon agreed on the plan to use Syrian Military Intelligence agents to
assassinate Hobeika. Rove saw Sharon as an indispensable ally of Bush in
ensuring the loyalty of the Christian evangelical and Jewish voting blocs in
the United States. Sharon saw the plan to have the United States coordinate
the hit as a way to mask all connections to Jerusalem.

The Syrian hit team was ordered by Assef Shawkat, the number two man in
Syrian military intelligence and a good friend and brother in law of Syrian
President Bashar Assad. Assad's intelligence services had already cooperated
with U.S. intelligence in resorting to unconventional methods to extract
information from al Qaeda detainees deported to Syria from the United States
and other countries in the wake of 9-11. The order to take out Hobeika was
transmitted by Shawkat to Roustom Ghazali, the head of Syrian military
intelligence in Beirut. Ghazali arranged for the three remote controlled
cars to be parked along Hobeika's route in Hazmieh; only few hundred yards
from the Barracks of Syrian Special Forces which are stationed in the area
near the Presidential palace , the ministry of Defense and various
Government and officers quarters . This particular area is covered 24/7 by a
very sophisticated USA multi-agency surveillance system to monitor Syrian
and Lebanese security activities and is a " Choice " area to live in for its
perceived high security, [Courtesy of the Special Collections Services.]
SCS...; CIA & NSA & DIA....etc.

The plan to kill Hobeika had all the necessary caveats and built-in denial
mechanisms. If the Syrians were discovered beforehand or afterwards, Karl
Rove and his associates in the Pentagon's Office of Special Plans would be
ensured plausible deniability.

Hobeika's CIA intermediary in Beirut, a man only referred to as "Jason" by
Hobeika, was a frequent companion of the Lebanese politician during official
and off-duty hours. During Hobeika's election campaigns for his
parliamentary seat, Jason was often in Hobeika's office offering support and
advice. After Hobeika's assassination, Jason became despondent over the
death of his colleague. Eventually, Jason disappeared abruptly from Lebanon
and reportedly later emerged in Pakistan.

Karl Rove's involvement in the assassination of Hobeika may not have been
the last "hit" he ordered to help out Sharon. In March 2002, a few months
after Hobeika's assassination, another Lebanese Christian with knowledge of
Sharon's involvement in the Sabra and Shatilla massacres was gunned down
along with his wife in Sao Paulo, Brazil. A bullet fired at Michael Nassar's
car flattened one of his tires. Nassar pulled into a gasoline station for
repairs. A professional assassin, firing a gun with a silencer, shot Nassar
and his wife in the head, killing them both instantly. The assailant fled
and was never captured. Nassar was also involved with the Phalange militia
at Sabra and Shatilla. Nassar was also reportedly willing to testify against
Sharon in Belgium and, as a nephew of SLA Commander General Antoine Lahd,
may have had important evidence to bolster Hobeika's charge that Sharon
ordered SLA forces into the camps to wipe out the Palestinians.

Based on what European intelligence claims is concrete intelligence on
Rove's involvement in the assassination of Hobeika, the Bush administration
can now add political assassination to its laundry list of other misdeeds,
from lying about the reasons to go to war to the torture tactics in
violation of the Geneva Conventions that have been employed by the Pentagon
and "third country" nationals at prisons in Iraq , Guantanamo Bay,
Morocco, and various East European locations, among others....


It is noteworthy that the State Department's list of global terrorist
incidents for 2002 worldwide failed to list the car bombing attack on
Hobeika and his party.... But Listed a small Hand Grenade thrown at
a U.S. franchise....? The White House wanted to ensure the attack was
censored from the report. The reason was simple: the attack ultimately had
Washington's fingerprints on it....


This is some of the evidence for you and for the World .... article=1052
*******************************************************************************
~encrypted/logs/access ====>> INTELLIGENCE Agencies Servers footprints.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Not to mention hundreds of private companies and governments........!
See Below :
*******************************************************************************

Lines 10-36 of my logfiles show a lot of interest in this article: =1052

# grep sid=1052 /encrypted/logs/access_log|awk '{print$1,$7}'|sed-n'10,36p'.
spb-213-33-248-190.sovintel.ru /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Soviet/Russian Intelligence services...
ext1.shape.nato.int /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
NATO Intel.
server1.namsa.nato.int /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Nato Intel.
ns1.saclantc.nato.int /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Strategic Air Command US Intel.
bxlproxyb.europarl.eu.int /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
European Parliament Intel. Unit
wdcsun18.usdoj.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
USA Department of Justice...
wdcsun21.usdoj.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
USA Department of Justice...
tcs-gateway11.treas.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
USA Treasury Department
tcs-gateway13.treas.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
USA Treasury Department
relay1.ucia.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
CIA Langley
relay2.cia.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
CIA Langley
relay2.ucia.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
CIA Langley
n021.dhs.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
USA Department of Homeland security Intel.
legion.dera.gov.uk /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
British Intel.
gateway-fincen.uscg.mil /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Pentagon US.
crawler2.googlebot.com /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Intel....
crawler1.googlebot.com /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Intel.....
gateway101.gsi.gov.uk /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
British Intel.
gate11-quantico.nmci.usmc.mil /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
USA Marine Corps Quantico Virginia Intel.
gate13-quantico.nmci.usmc.mil /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
USA Marine Corps Quantico Virginia Intel.
fw1-a.osis.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
US Intel SIS.
crawler13.googlebot.com /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Intel....
fw1-b.osis.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
US Intel. OSIS.
bouncer.nics.gov.uk /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
British Intel.
beluha.ssu.gov.ua /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Ukrainian Intelligence.
zukprxpro02.zreo.compaq.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052....
Intel....

"The significance of this masterpiece is not only the divulsion of facts,
but the focus it's made on the covert cooperation between the parties who
are playing enemies.... " At the very Least in Lebanon since the 1970s...!!!
Michael O'Neill
2005-12-08 16:28:48 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 08:23:55 -0500, "Nusrat Rizvi, Rowayton
Post by Nusrat Rizvi, Rowayton Connecticut
Usual nauseating Arab/Muslim claptrap.
Oh look.

A Nazi.

M.
Michael O'Neill
2005-12-08 15:20:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by
Karl Rove's White House " Murder Inc. ".
Ariel Sharon's & Karl Rove's White House " Assassinations Inc. " !!!
"The significance of this masterpiece is not only the divulsion of facts,
but the focus it's made on the covert cooperation between the parties who
are enemies...., thanks to the organized " Smear Campaign by ..X..?,
and the deliberate resonance it received in Damascus..... "
<snip>

Thanks for that.

Archived.

M.
Robin Hood Zoro
2005-12-08 19:05:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by
Karl Rove's White House " Murder Inc. ".
Ariel Sharon's & Karl Rove's White House " Assassinations Inc. " !!!
"The significance of this masterpiece is not only the divulsion of facts,
but the focus it's made on the covert cooperation between the parties who
are enemies...., thanks to the organized " Smear Campaign by ..X..?,
and the deliberate resonance it received in Damascus..... "
http://www.abcnorio.org/pcgi-bin/boards/housing/robboard.cgi?action=display&num=71
Special Investigation.
DEC., 2005- On September 15, 2001, just four days after the 9-11 attacks,
CIA Director George Tenet provided President [sic] Bush with a Top Secret
"Worldwide Attack Matrix"-a virtual license to kill targets deemed to be a
threat to the United States in some 80 countries around the world. The Tenet
plan, which was subsequently approved by Bush, essentially reversed the
executive orders of four previous U.S. administrations that expressly
prohibited political assassinations.
According to high level European intelligence officials, Bush's counselor,
Karl Rove, used the new presidential authority to silence a popular Lebanese
Christian politician who was planning to offer irrefutable evidence that
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon authorized the massacre of hundreds of
Palestinian men, women, and children in the Beirut refugee camps of Sabra
and Shatilla in 1982. In addition, Sharon provided the Lebanese forces who
carried out the grisly task. At the time of the massacres, Elie Hobeika was
intelligence chief of Lebanese Christian forces in Lebanon who were battling
Palestinians and other Muslim groups in a bloody civil war. He was also the
chief liaison to Israeli Defense Force (IDF) personnel in Lebanon. An
official Israeli inquiry into the massacre at the camps, the Kahan
Commission, merely found Sharon "indirectly" responsible for the slaughter
and fingered Hobeika as the chief instigator.
The Kahan Commission never called on Hobeika to offer testimony in his
defense. However, in response to charges brought against Sharon before a
special war crimes court in Belgium, Hobeika was urged to testify against
Sharon, according to well-informed Lebanese sources. Hobeika was prepared to
offer a different version of events than what was contained in the Kahan
report. A 1993 Belgian law permitting human rights prosecutions was unusual
in that non-Belgians could be tried for violations against other
non-Belgians in a Belgian court. Under pressure from the Bush
administration, the law was severely amended and the extra territoriality
provisions were curtailed.
Hobeika headed the Lebanese forces intelligence agency since the mid- 1970s
and he soon developed close ties to the CIA. He was a frequent visitor to
the CIA's headquarters at Langley, Virginia. After the Syrian invasion of
Lebanon in 1990, Hobeika held a number of cabinet positions in the Lebanese
government, a proxy for the Syrian occupation authorities. He also served in
the parliament. In July 2001, Hobeika called a press conference and
announced he was prepared to testify against Sharon in Belgium and revealed
that he had evidence of what actually occurred in Sabra and Shatilla.
Hobeika also indicated that Israel had flown members of the South Lebanon
Army (SLA) into Beirut International Airport in an Israeli Air Force C130
transport plane, in full view of dozens of witnesses, including members of
the Lebanese army and others. SLA troops under the command of Major Saad
Haddad were slipped into the camps to commit the massacres. The SLA troops
were under the direct command of Ariel Sharon and an Israeli Mossad agent
provocateur named Rafi Eitan. Hobeika offered evidence that a former U.S.
ambassador to Lebanon was aware of the Israeli plot. In addition, the IDF
had placed a camera in a strategic position to film the Sabra and Shatilla
massacres. Hobeika was going to ask that the footage be released as part of
the investigation of Sharon.
After announcing he was willing to testify against Sharon, Hobeika became
fearful for his safety and began moves to leave Lebanon. Hobeika was not
aware that his threats to testify against Sharon had triggered a series of
fateful events that reached well into the White House and Sharon's office.
On January 24, 2002, Hobeika's car was blown up by a remote controlled bomb
placed in a parked Mercedes along a street in the Hazmieh section of Beirut.
The bomb exploded when Hobeika and his three associates, Fares Souweidan,
Mitri Ajram, and Waleed Zein, were driving their Range Rover past the
TNT-laden Mercedes at 9:40 am Beirut time. The Range Rover's four passengers
were killed in the explosion. In case Hobeika's car had taken another route
through the neighborhood, two additional parked cars, located at two other
choke points, were also rigged with TNT. The powerful bomb wounded a number
of other people on the street. Other parked cars were destroyed and
buildings and homes were damaged. The Lebanese president, prime minister,
and interior minister all claimed that Israeli agents were behind the
attack.
It is noteworthy that the State Department's list of global terrorist
incidents for 2002 worldwide failed to list the car bombing attack on
Hobeika and his party. The White House wanted to ensure the attack was
censored from the report. The reason was simple: the attack ultimately had
Washington's fingerprints on it.
High level European intelligence sources now report that Karl Rove
personally coordinated Hobeika's assassination. The hit on Hobeika employed
Syrian intelligence agents. Syrian President Bashar Assad was trying to
curry favor with the Bush administration in the aftermath of 9-11 and was
more than willing to help the White House. In addition, Assad's father,
Hafez Assad, had been an ally of Bush's father during Desert Storm, a period
that saw Washington give a "wink and a nod" to Syria's occupation of
Lebanon. Rove wanted to help Sharon avoid any political embarrassment from
an in absentia trial in Brussels where Hobeika would be a star witness. Rove
and Sharon agreed on the plan to use Syrian Military Intelligence agents to
assassinate Hobeika. Rove saw Sharon as an indispensable ally of Bush in
ensuring the loyalty of the Christian evangelical and Jewish voting blocs in
the United States. Sharon saw the plan to have the United States coordinate
the hit as a way to mask all connections to Jerusalem.
The Syrian hit team was ordered by Assef Shawkat, the number two man in
Syrian military intelligence and a good friend and brother in law of Syrian
President Bashar Assad. Assad's intelligence services had already cooperated
with U.S. intelligence in resorting to unconventional methods to extract
information from al Qaeda detainees deported to Syria from the United States
and other countries in the wake of 9-11. The order to take out Hobeika was
transmitted by Shawkat to Roustom Ghazali, the head of Syrian military
intelligence in Beirut. Ghazali arranged for the three remote controlled
cars to be parked along Hobeika's route in Hazmieh; only few hundred yards
from the Barracks of Syrian Special Forces which are stationed in the area
near the Presidential palace , the ministry of Defense and various
Government and officers quarters . This particular area is covered 24/7 by a
very sophisticated USA multi-agency surveillance system to monitor Syrian
and Lebanese security activities and is a " Choice " area to live in for its
perceived high security, [Courtesy of the Special Collections Services.]
SCS...; CIA & NSA & DIA....etc.
The plan to kill Hobeika had all the necessary caveats and built-in denial
mechanisms. If the Syrians were discovered beforehand or afterwards, Karl
Rove and his associates in the Pentagon's Office of Special Plans would be
ensured plausible deniability.
Hobeika's CIA intermediary in Beirut, a man only referred to as "Jason" by
Hobeika, was a frequent companion of the Lebanese politician during official
and off-duty hours. During Hobeika's election campaigns for his
parliamentary seat, Jason was often in Hobeika's office offering support and
advice. After Hobeika's assassination, Jason became despondent over the
death of his colleague. Eventually, Jason disappeared abruptly from Lebanon
and reportedly later emerged in Pakistan.
Karl Rove's involvement in the assassination of Hobeika may not have been
the last "hit" he ordered to help out Sharon. In March 2002, a few months
after Hobeika's assassination, another Lebanese Christian with knowledge of
Sharon's involvement in the Sabra and Shatilla massacres was gunned down
along with his wife in Sao Paulo, Brazil. A bullet fired at Michael Nassar's
car flattened one of his tires. Nassar pulled into a gasoline station for
repairs. A professional assassin, firing a gun with a silencer, shot Nassar
and his wife in the head, killing them both instantly. The assailant fled
and was never captured. Nassar was also involved with the Phalange militia
at Sabra and Shatilla. Nassar was also reportedly willing to testify against
Sharon in Belgium and, as a nephew of SLA Commander General Antoine Lahd,
may have had important evidence to bolster Hobeika's charge that Sharon
ordered SLA forces into the camps to wipe out the Palestinians.
Based on what European intelligence claims is concrete intelligence on
Rove's involvement in the assassination of Hobeika, the Bush administration
can now add political assassination to its laundry list of other misdeeds,
from lying about the reasons to go to war to the torture tactics in
violation of the Geneva Conventions that have been employed by the Pentagon
and "third country" nationals at prisons in Iraq , Guantanamo Bay,
Morocco, and various East European locations, among others....
It is noteworthy that the State Department's list of global terrorist
incidents for 2002 worldwide failed to list the car bombing attack on
Hobeika and his party.... But Listed a small Hand Grenade thrown at
a U.S. franchise....? The White House wanted to ensure the attack was
censored from the report. The reason was simple: the attack ultimately had
Washington's fingerprints on it....
This is some of the evidence for you and for the World .... article=1052
*******************************************************************************
~encrypted/logs/access ====>> INTELLIGENCE Agencies Servers footprints.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Not to mention hundreds of private companies and governments........!
*******************************************************************************
Lines 10-36 of my logfiles show a lot of interest in this article: =1052
# grep sid=1052 /encrypted/logs/access_log|awk '{print$1,$7}'|sed-n'10,36p'.
spb-213-33-248-190.sovintel.ru /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Soviet/Russian Intelligence services...
ext1.shape.nato.int /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
NATO Intel.
server1.namsa.nato.int /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Nato Intel.
ns1.saclantc.nato.int /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Strategic Air Command US Intel.
bxlproxyb.europarl.eu.int /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
European Parliament Intel. Unit
wdcsun18.usdoj.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
USA Department of Justice...
wdcsun21.usdoj.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
USA Department of Justice...
tcs-gateway11.treas.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
USA Treasury Department
tcs-gateway13.treas.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
USA Treasury Department
relay1.ucia.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
CIA Langley
relay2.cia.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
CIA Langley
relay2.ucia.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
CIA Langley
n021.dhs.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
USA Department of Homeland security Intel.
legion.dera.gov.uk /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
British Intel.
gateway-fincen.uscg.mil /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Pentagon US.
crawler2.googlebot.com /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Intel....
crawler1.googlebot.com /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Intel.....
gateway101.gsi.gov.uk /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
British Intel.
gate11-quantico.nmci.usmc.mil /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
USA Marine Corps Quantico Virginia Intel.
gate13-quantico.nmci.usmc.mil /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
USA Marine Corps Quantico Virginia Intel.
fw1-a.osis.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
US Intel SIS.
crawler13.googlebot.com /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Intel....
fw1-b.osis.gov /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
US Intel. OSIS.
bouncer.nics.gov.uk /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
British Intel.
beluha.ssu.gov.ua /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052
Ukrainian Intelligence.
zukprxpro02.zreo.compaq.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1052....
Intel....
"The significance of this masterpiece is not only the divulsion of facts,
but the focus it's made on the covert cooperation between the parties who
are playing enemies.... " At the very Least in Lebanon since the 1970s...!!!
Hugo
2005-12-09 03:32:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael O'Neill
From a purely legal point of view
the Congressional joint resolution is
more than adequate to establish the
facial legal validity of the Iraq war.
(a) AUTHORIZATION. The President
is authorized to use the Armed Forces
of the United States as he determines
to be necessary and appropriate in
order to
(1) defend the national security
of the United States against the
continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
Of which there was none.
No Iraqi delivery system able to reach the United States.
No Iraqi area affect weapons able to affect the U.S.
No Iraqi plans to invade the United States.
Post by Michael O'Neill
(2) enforce all relevant United
Nations Security Council
Resolutions regarding Iraq.
Which would be United Nations business, not the United States.
Post by Michael O'Neill
Vince
Its very simple.
a) Defend America?
No problem. Good luck to America, she's already riddled with spies and
fifth columnists, some of whom are obviously influencing government. She
has a hard job ahead of her. The last thing America should do is view
her people as assets, the providers of a tax base with which to finance
foreign wars. The founding fathers sought to escape that kind of European
mentality. I suggest America develops community policing, and invests the
money she is spending on war to improve health, education and welfare
provision, that she begins to look after her people, instead of allowing
her security forces to import drugs with which to decimate the
populations of her inner cities and small towns. Otherwise she fails of
her promise and destroys her greatest wealth, her people.
b) Invade Iraq?
WMDs = basis for war.
No WMDs - no basis for war.
America had no legitimate reason for the invasion. She should stay at
home and not have her security forces put petty dictators in government,
then she wouldn't have any Saddams to worry about. Oh but what would be
her reasons for foreign adventuring then, ehhh? What indeed...
c) Expand the theatre of operations to include Iran, North Korea?
America should Defend her borders, increase her security, stay out of
other countries. America doesn't own the world and where she breaks
international law and visits atrocities on an already oppressed
population, whose oppression was made worse by American led sanctions for
a decade, and who was subject to the rule of an American-supported
strongman, than she will be held to account. As it is, American
credibility as the upholder and defender of Freedom and Democracy has
been hugely challenged by events leading up to, during and after her
ongoing foreign adventures in the Middle East and Eastern Europe.
d) Use of Torture and Internment without Trial in COncentration Camps
Previously vilified as an action of Germany during WWII, the use of
internment without trial in concentration camps against an oppressed
population or ethnic sub-group was invented by the British in the Boer
War in the nineteenth century. The British again used it against Northern
Irish Nationals during the Troubles. America is now using it against
Muslims. The kidnapping and holding without trial of foreign nationals in
Guantanamo Bay after their incarceration in Afghanistan, Iraq and in
intermediate countries to avoid laws on torture being broken in America
is well documented.
http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/legal/september_11th/docs/Guantanamo_composite_statement_FINAL.pdf
Post by Michael O'Neill
The use of former soviet block countries, Egypt and European countries as
holding and/or torturing camps is deplored. The use of Shannon Airport in
the Republic of Ireland to transport illegally detained prisoners is not
acceptable.
M.
Michael O'Neill
2005-12-09 15:20:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hugo
From a purely legal point of view
the Congressional joint resolution is
more than adequate to establish the
facial legal validity of the Iraq war.
(a) AUTHORIZATION. The President
is authorized to use the Armed Forces
of the United States as he determines
to be necessary and appropriate in
order to
(1) defend the national security
of the United States against the
continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
Of which there was none.
No Iraqi delivery system able to reach the United States.
No Iraqi area affect weapons able to affect the U.S.
No Iraqi plans to invade the United States.
(2) enforce all relevant United
Nations Security Council
Resolutions regarding Iraq.
Which would be United Nations business, not the United States.
Vince
<snip my contribution to the previous post>

I think you should have followed up Vince, Hugo, but you appear correct
on all points raised.

:-)

M.
Vince
2005-12-09 16:26:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by Hugo
From a purely legal point of view
the Congressional joint resolution is
more than adequate to establish the
facial legal validity of the Iraq war.
(a) AUTHORIZATION. The President
is authorized to use the Armed Forces
of the United States as he determines
to be necessary and appropriate in
order to
(1) defend the national security
of the United States against the
continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
Of which there was none.
No Iraqi delivery system able to reach the United States.
No Iraqi area affect weapons able to affect the U.S.
No Iraqi plans to invade the United States.
(2) enforce all relevant United
Nations Security Council
Resolutions regarding Iraq.
Which would be United Nations business, not the United States.
Vince
<snip my contribution to the previous post>
I think you should have followed up Vince, Hugo, but you appear correct
on all points raised.
:-)
M.
You are conflating two different concepts. One is the legality of war
under intnarnational law and the other is the legality of war under
Municipal i.e. USA law. A declaration of war is not required under
either municipal or international law for a State of war to exist

CF

December 8, 1941

JOINT RESOLUTION Declaring that a state of war exists between
the Imperial Government of Japan and the Government and the people of
the United States and making provisions to prosecute the same.

Whereas the Imperial Government of Japan has committed
unprovoked acts of war against the Government and the people of the
United States of America: Therefore be it Resolved by the Senate and
House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress
assembled, That the state of war between the United States and the
Imperial Government of Japan which has thus been thrust upon the United
States is hereby formally declared; and the President is hereby
authorized and directed to employ the entire naval and military forces
of the United States and the resources of the Government to carry on war
against the Imperial Government of Japan; and, to bring the conflict to
a successful termination, all of the resources of the country are hereby
pledged by the Congress of the United States.

Approved, December 8, 1941,


It is a declaration that a state of war "exists" Its handy and useful
but not required.

Vince
Hugo
2005-12-09 23:26:21 UTC
Permalink
As you may notice Vince, a rational United States in 1941 declared war upon
a foreign nation, specifically the Imperial Government of Japan ..

Only an irrational person or persons would ask a military to conduct a
POLICING action against a crime such as 9/11, the Bali Bombing, the Madrid
train bombings, the London Bombings, and the second Bali Bombing effort.
Those criminal acts were committed by criminals, people who operate in
anybody's country, people who do not wear their nations uniform to identify
themselves, people who do not have government support in most countries.
In fact I only know of the Taliban and Indonesian/TNI governments that
conducted pro-Osama bin Laden rallies after 9/11 and continued hosting Al
Qaeda as well as related terrorist training camps and funding raising
networks afterwards and now.

The U.S. military is very good at stopping another NATION (not criminals)
which has either attacked the United States, or which has so destabilized
global security by violating established rules of international conduct
that the U.S. people and government agree with other nations to take part
in a military response against that nation.

You may also note that Iraq was not invading the United States in 2002.
Although in 1991 I along with many others wanted Saddam to be arrested then
for having invaded Kuwait, for having used chemical weapons on ethnic
groups he did not like, and for anything else we had suitable evidence for;
the U.S. made the decision to let him go in 1991. Nor was Saddam helping Al
Qaeda or Osama, in fact the last relations they had that I've heard of in
the media was that Osama wanted to kill Saddam which would suggest that
Saddam was unlikely to provide any aid to anything Osama wanted.

By unilaterally deciding to invade Iraq without provocation , the United
States had open the door for any nation or group of criminals to claim to
have an equal right to attack Americans.

Sending the U.S. military into Iraq in 2002 was a really stupid thing to
do. And I believe every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff had a legal and
moral responsibility to point out that fact before accepting orders to
violate U.S. safety and wellbeing as well as international standards of
military behavior.

The U.S. military is NOT a policing force, you do NOT send it around the
planet invading other countries just because you suspect that country might
have naughty weapons of mass destruction, or because somebody in that
country might be harboring ill-will towards someone in the United States.
The military should NOT be used as a thought-police force.

In September 2001, a responsible President would have said that although
this attack was horrific and violated every human code of conduct; that the
nation must not reward the criminals by over-responding or obsessing. That
as the nation mourned the victims, its Federal police and other agencies
would identify and convict the criminals for their vile betrayal of human
behavior and moral codes.

It is a shame, that instead of that decent, rational behavior in his
nation's best interests; that the U.S. was being lead by a chickenhawk who
eagerly inflated his chest and boasted that the might of the U.S.A. would
level countries in revenge against whomever had done this thing./
Post by Vince
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by Hugo
From a purely legal point of view
the Congressional joint resolution is
more than adequate to establish the
facial legal validity of the Iraq war.
(a) AUTHORIZATION. The President
is authorized to use the Armed Forces
of the United States as he determines
to be necessary and appropriate in
order to
(1) defend the national security
of the United States against the
continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
Of which there was none.
No Iraqi delivery system able to reach the United States.
No Iraqi area affect weapons able to affect the U.S.
No Iraqi plans to invade the United States.
(2) enforce all relevant United
Nations Security Council
Resolutions regarding Iraq.
Which would be United Nations business, not the United States.
Vince
<snip my contribution to the previous post>
I think you should have followed up Vince, Hugo, but you appear correct
on all points raised.
:-)
M.
You are conflating two different concepts. One is the legality of war
under intnarnational law and the other is the legality of war under
Municipal i.e. USA law. A declaration of war is not required under
either municipal or international law for a State of war to exist
CF
December 8, 1941
JOINT RESOLUTION Declaring that a state of war exists between
the Imperial Government of Japan and the Government and the people of
the United States and making provisions to prosecute the same.
Whereas the Imperial Government of Japan has committed
unprovoked acts of war against the Government and the people of the
United States of America: Therefore be it Resolved by the Senate and
House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress
assembled, That the state of war between the United States and the
Imperial Government of Japan
.. .. ..
Michael O'Neill
2005-12-12 08:44:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vince
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by Hugo
From a purely legal point of view
the Congressional joint resolution is
more than adequate to establish the
facial legal validity of the Iraq war.
(a) AUTHORIZATION. The President
is authorized to use the Armed Forces
of the United States as he determines
to be necessary and appropriate in
order to
(1) defend the national security
of the United States against the
continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
Of which there was none.
No Iraqi delivery system able to reach the United States.
No Iraqi area affect weapons able to affect the U.S.
No Iraqi plans to invade the United States.
(2) enforce all relevant United
Nations Security Council
Resolutions regarding Iraq.
Which would be United Nations business, not the United States.
Vince
<snip my contribution to the previous post>
I think you should have followed up Vince, Hugo, but you appear correct
on all points raised.
:-)
M.
You are conflating two different concepts. One is the legality of war
under intnarnational law and the other is the legality of war under
Municipal i.e. USA law. A declaration of war is not required under
either municipal or international law for a State of war to exist
CF
December 8, 1941
JOINT RESOLUTION Declaring that a state of war exists between
the Imperial Government of Japan and the Government and the people of
the United States and making provisions to prosecute the same.
Whereas the Imperial Government of Japan has committed
unprovoked acts of war against the Government and the people of the
United States of America: Therefore be it Resolved by the Senate and
House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress
assembled, That the state of war between the United States and the
Imperial Government of Japan which has thus been thrust upon the United
States is hereby formally declared; and the President is hereby
authorized and directed to employ the entire naval and military forces
of the United States and the resources of the Government to carry on war
against the Imperial Government of Japan; and, to bring the conflict to
a successful termination, all of the resources of the country are hereby
pledged by the Congress of the United States.
Approved, December 8, 1941,
It is a declaration that a state of war "exists" Its handy and useful
but not required.
Its handy and useful if you want to claim legitimacy later, as all
right-thinking peoples should, and as America cannot now do. That was my
point. America is now see n as monstrous the world over.

Of course in the declaration above, the word "unprovoked" is misplaced,
FDR having devised and implemented an eight point plan to lure the
Japanese into attacking a largely undefended target far from the
mainland.

The original commander of the seventh fleet was "retired" when he refused
to lead the fleet to Pearl because he knew it was deliberately putting
them in harm's way.

Kimmel and the other commander at Pearl were not informed of Washington's
knowledge of Japanese ship movements leading up to the attack.

FDR's problem was that, as a largely peace loving nation with 80% of the
electorate behind Senator Charles Lindbergh, there was no possibility of
America going to war against Germany.

A Germany whose arms build up had been financed by the current
incumbent's grandfather, Prescott Bush for United Bank an d Fritz
Thyssen.

So FDR had to raise the ire of the American public by orchestrating a
Japanese atrocity. What was the final straw? The cessation of oil sales
to Japan.

Look back to the first world war and see the assassination of the
Austrian Duke by a Serb assassin as the "cause" if you will, but the
Dreadnoughts had been building for twenty years or so and they weren't
needed for coastal patrols.

The assassination was merely the excuse needed for to put these ships
through their paces.

Excuses, excuses, excuses.

"We had a good reason for killing the millions".

Ehhh, nope.

People who start wars say that war spurs invention. This is patently
bullshit. A short review of Black Inventors of the United States dispels
this notion. All war does is spur the invention of a particular class of
weapons.

These selfsame people are largely ignorant of the web, woven by others,
in which they are enmeshed leading up to war. Nowadays even the

The flower of Europe's manhood was lost in WWI, much of the remainder
lost on WWII.

Where did the funding for the Kaisar's fleet come from?

Who spurred him on to develop it and ultimately destroy one of the great
naval powers of Europe?

Which nation or nations have benefited most from the European wars?

These are the questions that might be asked...

M.

Loading...