MUSLIMS IN AMERICA CAN JOIN THE WAR ON TERROR

[Dr. Jai Maharaj]

MUSLIMS IN AMERICA CAN JOIN WAR ON TERROR

By Gordon Bishop
American Daily
Monday, July 11, 2005

The only way the War on Terror can be won is if Muslims
who live, work and pray in America join the United States
and other free nations around the world in ending the
radical Islamic terrorism once and for all.

Since the 9/ll terrorists attack on America killing 3,000
innocent men, women and children, I have urged Muslims
praying in their mosques across America to put an end to
the slaughtering and madness of their radical Islamic
brothers and sisters.

If they believe in their own bible, the Koran, they will
follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, whom they worship
in the Koran.

The problem with the Koran is that while it uses Jesus
Christ as the model of all truths for humanity, the Koran
also calls for the conversion of all Jews and Christians
to Islam. The Koran, the work of the self-proclaimed
prophet Mohammad some1,400 years ago, also suggests if
you can't convert Jews and Christians to Islam (Muslims),
than they must be eliminated.

There is no other "religion" in this world that basis its
faith on the elimination of those who will not convert to
Islam's interpretation of Jesus Christ -- not the Hebrew
Old Testament or the Christian New Testament.

There are different Muslim sects in Iraq and Afghanistan
that are killing each other in the name of Jesus Christ.

As a Roman Catholic, I find that insane, inhuman and
beyond human comprehension.

When the World Trade Center Twin Towers collapsed in a
cloud of fire and smoke on 9/11, the Muslims danced in
the streets of Jersey City, Paterson, Trenton and other
New Jersey towns where Muslim mosques are located.

Celebrating the mass murdering of innocent civilians is
anti-Christ, anti-religion and anti-everything that is
rational or humane.

There must be some rational, God-fearing Muslims willing
to come forward and demand that their use of human-bombs
blowing up other innocent human beings must be stopped
now.

In the Iraqi war, Sunni Muslims and Shi'-ite Muslims are
killing each other, all in the name of Jesus Christ. This
is blasphemy at its worst!

I don't see Christians killing Christians, or Jews
killing Jews in a crazed "Holy War." There's nothing holy
about what terrorists are doing throughout the world.

Once again, I am urging all Muslims in America,
regardless of their sect, to stand up for America and the
rest of the free world pursuing freedom and peace -- not
the destruction of Western Civilization (or any society
or civilizations, for that matter).

Do the Muslims who have chosen America as their home have
the courage and conscience to stand up for the freedoms
most Americans cherish as their birthright under our
national Republican Constitution?

Certainly, there are liberals, socialists, Marxists and
Communists who call themselves American, while they are
doing everything they can to undermine our way of life.
They can do that in America because we are a free
country. Try that in Mideast countries like Iraq, Iran,
Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia and other such regimes and
see what happens to your "Freedom of Speech."

So far, the good far outnumber the bad trying to
dismantle our Constitution, thus destroying everything
this country means since it was founded in 1776 after a
bloody revolution over taxes and the heavy suppression by
an absentee kingdom in England.

We won the right to be free in the American Revolution,
just as the slaves won their freedom during the 1860s
Civil War between t he states (North versus South).

President Thomas Jefferson, who wrote America's
"Declaration of Independence" (July 4th Independence Day)
believed that each generation of Americans must be
willing to shed their blood, if necessary, to keep our
Constitutional Republic intact.

President George W. Bush responded to the first
terrorists attack on America on 9/11/01 by declaring the
War On Terror where the terrorists are creating havoc:
Afghanistan and then Iraq. These are the first two steps
taken in the global War on Terror. This global war could
go on for a century.

If the Muslims in America refuse to join in this War On
Terror against their own religious fanatics, then the
Muslins living, working and praying here should leave
America. As "Americans," they are not willing to shed any
blood to protect this nation from terrorism by those in
their own Islamic world.
- Gordon Bishop

- - -

Editor - Views are those of individual authors and not
necessarily those of American Daily.

Gordon Bishop is a national award-winning author,
historian and syndicated columnist. He is the recipient
of 8 Congressional Commendations, 12 National and 15
State Journalism Awards, including New Jersey's first
"Journalist-of-the-Year" -- 1986/New Jersey Press
Association.

http://www.americandaily.com/article/8186

End of forwarded message

Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti

Hindu Holocaust Museum
http://www.mantra.com/holocaust

Hindu life, principles, spirituality and philosophy
http://www.hindu.org
http://www.hindunet.org

The truth about Islam and Muslims
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate

The terrorist mission of Jesus stated in the Christian bible:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not so send
peace, but a sword.
"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the
daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in
law.
"And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
- Matthew 10:34-36.

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Since newsgroup posts are being removed
by forgery by one or more net terrorists,
this post may be reposted several times.

[tony]

Why Say bad things about other religion when yours the same!!



Behind The Bible Fraud - What Was The Church Trying To Hide?
By Robert Adams
New Dawn Magazine.com
6-21-5

When I first spoke to a close Christian friend of mine about the
publishing of Tony Bushby's The Bible Fraud, her reaction was one that many
Christians have expressed, and one that made me aghast. She didn't want the
book available because it would "persuade them away from the Bible and the
word of God." Further discussions with her and many other Christians around
the world about The Bible Fraud all result in the Bible being quoted as the
ultimate reference for the apparent "words of God," and therefore the basis
for their arguments. The problem lies in that they believe the Bible is
infallible.

If we examine the oldest known Bible to date, the "Sinai Bible"
housed in the British Museum (I believe that, during his many years of
research, Tony had a private viewing of this priceless book), we find a
staggering 14,800 differences from today's Bible and yet it still remains
the word of God?

As Tony points out, the history of our 'genuine' Bibles is a
convoluted one. Firstly we cannot be sure that we have the full version as
it was originally intended. In 1415 the Church of Rome took an extraordinary
step to destroy all knowledge of two second century Jewish books that it
said contained the true name of Jesus Christ. The Antipope Benedict XIII
firstly singled out for condemnation a secret Latin treatise called "Mar
Yesu" and then issued instructions to destroy all copies of the book of
Elxai. The Rabbinic fraternity once held the destroyed manuscripts with
great reverence for they were comprehensive original records reporting the
life of Rabbi Jesus.

Later, Pope Alexander VI ordered all copies of the Talmud destroyed,
with the Spanish Grand Inquisitor Tomas de Torquemada (1420-98) responsible
for the elimination of 6,000 volumes at Salamanca alone.

Solomon Romano (1554) also burnt many thousands of Hebrew scrolls
and, in 1559, every Hebrew book in the city of Prague was confiscated. The
mass destruction of Jewish books included hundreds of copies of the Old
Testament and caused the irretrievable loss of many original handwritten
documents.

The oldest text of the Old Testament that survived, before the
discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls" was said to be the Bodleian Codex
(Oxford), which was dated to circa 1100 AD. In an attempt by the church to
remove damaging Rabbinic information about Jesus Christ from the face of the
earth, the Inquisition burnt 12,000 volumes of the Talmud.

In 1607, forty-seven men (some records say fifty four) took two
years and nine months to re-write the Bible and make it ready for press. It
was, by the order of King James, issued with a set of personal 'rules' the
translators were to follow. Upon its completion in 1609, it was handed over
to the King James for his final approval. However, "It was self evident that
James was not competent to check their work and edit it, so he passed the
manuscripts onto the greatest genius of all time... Sir Francis Bacon"

The first English language manuscripts of the Bible remained in
Bacon's possession for nearly a year. During that time ... "he hammered the
various styles of the translators into the unity, rhythm, and music of
Shakespearean prose, wrote the prefaces and created the whole scheme of the
Authorized Version. At the completion of the editing, King James ordered a
'dedication to the King' to be drawn up and included in the opening pages.
He also wanted the phrase 'Appointed to be read in the churches' to appear
on the title page.

The King James Bible is considered by many today to be the
'original' Bible and therefore 'genuine' and all later revisions simply
counterfeits forged by 'higher critics'. Others think the King James Bible
is 'authentic' and 'authorized' and presents the original words of the
authors as translated into English from the 'original' Greek texts. However,
as Tony points out, the 'original' Greek text was not written until around
the mid fourth century and was a revised edition of writings compiled
decades earlier in Aramaic and Hebrew. Those earlier documents no longer
exist and the Bibles we have today are five linguistic removes from the
first bibles written. What was written in the 'original originals' is quite
unknown. It is important to remember that the words 'authorized' and
'original', as applied to the Bible do not mean 'genuine', 'authentic' or
'true'.

By the early third century, it became well noted that a problem was
occurring . politics! In 251AD, the number of Presbyter's (roving orator or
priest) writings had increased dramatically and bitter arguments raged
between opposing factions about their conflicting stories. According to
Presbyter Albius Theodoret (circa 255), there were "more than two hundred"
variant gospels in use in his time. In 313, groups of Presbyters and Biscops
(Bishops) violently clashed over the variations in their writings and "altar
was set against altar" in competing for an audience and territory.

When Emperor Constantine conquered the East in 324, he sent his
Spanish religious advisor, Osius of Cordoba, to Alexandria with letters to
several Biscops exhorting them to make peace among their own. But the
mission failed and Constantine, probably at the suggestions of Osius, then
issued a decree commanding all Presbyters and their subordinates "be mounted
on asses, mules and horses belonging to the public and travel to the city of
Nicaea" in the Roman province of Bithymia, the country of Asia. The
Presbyters were instructed by the Emperor to bring with them the manuscripts
from which they orated to the rabble (that's us!) "wrapped and bound in
leather".

Constantine saw in this developing system of belief the opportunity
to make a combined state religion and protect it by law. The first general
church council was thus convened and the year was 325.

On 21 June, the day of the Summer Solstice, (and under those cult
conditions) a total of 2048 "presbyters, deacons, sub-deacons, acolytes and
exorcists" gathered at Nicaea to decide what Christianity really was, what
it would be, what writings were to be used and who was to be it's God.

Ancient church evidence established that a new 'god' was to be
approved by the Roman Emperor and an earlier attempt (circa 210) to deify
either Judas Khrestus or his twin brother Rabbi Jesus (or somebody else) had
been 'declined'. Therefore, as late as 325, the Christian religion did not
have an official god.

After a long and bitter debate, a vote was finally taken and it was
with a majority show of hands that Judas Khrestus and Rabbi Jesus both
became God (161votes for and 157 votes against). The Emperor effectively
joined elements of the two individual life stories of the twin brothers into
a singular creation. The doctrine of the Celtic / British church of the west
was democratically attached to the Presbyters stories of the east.

A deification ceremony was then performed 'Apotheosis'. Thus the
deified ones were then called 'saviours' and looked upon as gods. Temples,
altars, and images with attributes of divinity were then erected and public
holidays proclaimed on their birthdays.

Following the original example set by the deification of Caesar,
their funerals were dramatized as the scene of their resurrection and
immortality. All these godly attributes passed as a legal right to Emperor
Constantine's new deity, Jesus Christ.

The Emperor then instructed Bishop Eusebius to compile a uniform
collection of new writings "bound together as one" using the stories from
the large collection of Presbyters as his reference source. Eusebius was to
arrange for the production of "fifty sumptuous copies ... to be written on
parchment in a legible manner, and in a convenient portable form, by
professional scribes thoroughly accomplished in the art". This was the first
mention of finished copies of a Christian 'New Testament' in the history of
mankind.

As one can imagine, to condense the real life of the Jesus Christ,
the Church and His teachings with supporting evidence into a short article
is very difficult. It is therefore wise for those who wish to have
supportable evidence to read and study Tony Bushby's epic work, The Bible
Fraud, along with it's detailed blood lines (family trees) and over 869
references. (see www.thebiblefraud.com)

However, attempting to summarize what Tony has written..... in 325
AD, the first Christian council was called at Nicaea to bring the stories of
twin brothers, Jesus 'the Rabbi' and Judas Khrestus into one deity that we
now know as Jesus Christ. Tony says they were not born of virgin birth but
to Nabatean Arab Mariamne Herod (now known as the Virgin Mary) and fathered
by Tiberius ben Panthera, a Roman Centurion. The brothers were raised in the
Essene community and became Khrists of their faith. Rabbi Jesus later was
initiated in Egypt at the highest of levels similar to the 33rd degree of
Freemasonry of which many Prime ministers and Presidents around the world
today are members. He then later married three wives, one of whom we know as
a Mary Magdalene, a Druidic Princess, stole the Torah from the temple and
moved to Lud, now London.

Tony believes the reason Jesus stole the Torah was that he said it
contained "a very special secret", which he was going to reveal that secret
to the world. He was stoned to death and the Torah taken from him before he
could.

The elder brother, Judas Khrestus, with his "Khrestian" followers
conspired to take the throne of Rome, his royal birthright, and was
captured, tried, and was sentenced to be crucified. (The "Khrestians" and
the Essenic army, the Nazarenes, would today be likened to terrorists.) At
the trial, Judas exercised his royal birthright to have a replacement in
Simon of Cyrene (Luke 23:41) and then was sold as a slave to live out his
days as a carpenter in India.

Rabbi Jesus spent a considerable amount of time at the Palace of the
British in Rome and sometime around 48 AD, he left for Egypt to pursue his
greatest esoteric goal. The spiritual knowledge from his secret education in
the Essene and Druid movements was soon to be elevated to the highest level
possible - initiation into the innermost rite of the Egyptian temples.

It was probable that Rabbi Jesus' earlier initiation into both the
Essene and Druid schools played a major part in his acceptance into the
Egyptian school. The Druids could claim a very early origin and the essence
of their wisdom was also that of the Essenes. In the case of the Essenes, it
is possible to show that their movement was specifically established to
preserve secret information, for they knew and used the sacred writing of
the Initiates. The full meaning of the point being made by Bushby is that in
the case of all Secret Schools, the inner and ultimate Mystery was revealed
only to a High Initiate.

Those who were initiated into the Ancient mysteries took a solemn
oath never to reveal what had passed within the sacred walls. Every year
only a comparatively few Egyptian initiations were conducted, and the number
of persons who knew their secrets was never at any time large. The
initiations always took place with the onset of darkness and the candidate
was entranced for periods of varying length, depending upon the level of the
degree for which he had entered.

The first initiatory step involved a forty-day procedure that
basically involved purification, not only in physical form, but dissolving
all tendencies to evil thoughts, purifying the mind as well. It appears that
he would have fasted, alternatively on vegetables, juices and very special
herbal concoctions.

The New Testament recorded that this happened to Rabbi Jesus who
"was led into the desert.... and he fasted forty days and forty nights"
(Matt. 4:1-2).

This trial period involved more than just fasting. During the forty
days and nights' ordeal, Tony says the candidate was required to study
astronomical charts to supplement his skills in astronomy and memorize
charts of the heavens. They were also given a particular ritual from which
to memorize certain passwords, secret signs and handclasps, skills that are
still practiced to this day in Freemasonry.

These initiations were not limited to Egypt. The ancient
civilizations inherited these Mysteries from a remote antiquity and they
constituted part of a primitive revelation from the gods to the human race.
Almost every people of pre-Christian times possessed its institution and
tradition of the mysteries. The Romans, the Druids of Britain, the Greeks,
the Cretans, the Syrians, the Hindus, the Persians, the Maya and the
American Indians, among others, had corresponding temples and rites with a
system of graduated illuminations for the initiates.

The modern world knows little of these ancient rites yet they were
conducted in a huge variety of buildings the world over.

The 'Towers' that are found throughout the East in Asia were
directly connected with the Mystery-initiations. The candidates for
initiation were placed in them for three days and three nights, whenever
there was no temple with a subterranean crypt close at hand.

In this aspect of the initiatory procedure, Tony points out a direct
Gospel parallel with Rabbi Jesus saying, "After three days I shall rise
again", for he knew the finishing process he was to undertake would take
three days being a symbol of the period of time required to complete a
condition of development. The ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic texts speak of
an initiate as 'twice-born', and he was permitted to add to his name the
words 'he who has renewed his life', so that on some ancient
tomb-inscriptions archaeologists still discover these phases descriptive of
the spiritual status of the deceased person.

So little did the later Gospel writers understand the initiatory
process that they never perceived they were developing a story that included
a Rabbi's (and Arch Druid of Britain) experience in an Egyptian Mystery
School.

St Austin (c. 380) asserted that it was generally known in church
circles that Rabbi Jesus had been initiated in Egypt, and that "he wrote
books concerning magic". In the Gospel of Nicodemus, the Jews brought the
same accusation before Pontius Pilate, "Did we not tell you he was a
magician?" Celsus (c. 178) spoke of the same charge. In the Clementine
Recognitions, the accusation was brought against Rabbi Jesus that he did not
perform any miracles but practiced magic and carried about with him the
figure of a seated skeleton.

Jewish tradition invariably asserted that Rabbi Jesus learned
'magic' in Egypt. Bushby says the kernel of this persistent accusation may
perhaps be reduced to the simple historical element that Rabbi Jesus went to
Egypt and returned with far wider and more enlightened views than those of
his former religious associates.

Now, I'm sure that many of you are having trouble grasping some of
the ideas presented in this article and I congratulate you on taking the
effort to read this far. We all need to demand our local Church, the Church
scholars, theologians and media make an open examination of the evidence
compiled in Tony Bushby's The Bible Fraud. It may rattle some core beliefs
but what is more important to you . the truth or what sits comfortably
because it's what you've known all you life?

I leave you with a quote from one of the conspirators

"How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of
Christ has been for us." Pope Leo X (1513-1521)

Article first published in New Dawn Magazine No 71, March 2002

[c***@gmail.com]

Dear Tony,

The manuscript became known as the Codex Sinaiticus (book from the
Sinai), is a Greek manuscript.

The Old Testament seats alongside the New, which to those who use both
Old and New are intrinsically linked; the new continuously interweaving
the Old Scriptures amongst Christ's teachings and parables helping to
unlock their hidden meaning. The Old Testament is over 95% accurate to
the content of Jewish Scriptures, which have been kept _long_ before
Jesus' birth. Hence, this accuracy becomes a testimony in itself to the
accuracy of today's Bibles. The Codex Sinaiticus is believed to be the
middle of the fourth centaury. Cross references to the accuracy of The
Old Testament have been made from the Dead Sea Scrolls too.

Jesus didn't steal The Torah, a Jew can't 'steal' the Torah, He taught
from the scrolls, as Rabbis do today, and God's Word was inherent
within His soul by the power of God's Holy Spirit.

If you know and understand about The Spirit of God, then you will
understand that by God's power all Scriptures become known to men, even
those who have not known scriptures. Languages come to those who have
not heard such languages, music comes to those who did not know it
before, light comes along with healing and forgiveness and many more
gifts of the Spirit come to men. Men who have never heard or seen a
Bible receive these things as a testament to their faith in Christ and
to His truth.

In Christ's love
Carol T

[George]

Here's what Christians do!
Thousands Mark Srebrenica Massacre Date

Published: 7/11/05


SREBRENICA, Bosnia-Herzegovina (AP) - World leaders joined 50,000 people
Monday to remember the victims of Europe's worst massacre since World War
II - the death of nearly 8,000 Muslims 10 years ago when Serbs overran the
U.N.-protected enclave of Srebrenica.

The sound of Muslim prayer echoed through a loudspeaker as relatives
wandered among 610 caskets containing newly identified remains. After a
religious service, the caskets were passed from hand to hand toward the
graves and buried. The sound of dirt striking the coffins and the weeping of
women competed with a voice reading out the names of the victims.

Fatima Budic huddled over the coffin of her son before the burial, alone in
her grief.

"They killed my entire life and the only thing I want now is to see the
guilty ones pay for it," sobbed Budic, next to the coffin of her 14-year-old
son, Velija. Budic's husband and Velija's 16-year-old brother have never
been found.

Government leaders and dignitaries were among the crowd gathered to
commemorate the 10th anniversary of the killings that began July 11, 1995,
when Bosnian Serb soldiers overran Srebrenica - a U.N. "safe zone."
Outmanned and outgunned Dutch U.N. troops watched. The males were led off
and slaughtered, and their bodies dumped in mass graves throughout eastern
Bosnia.

Forensics experts have exhumed more than 5,000 bodies, and identified 2,032
through DNA analysis and other techniques. More than 1,300 Srebrenica
victims are already buried at the cemetery that is part of the memorial
center. In all, nearly 8,000 were killed.

While the slaughter spurred the NATO bombings of Serb positions across
Bosnia that forced the Serbs to seek peace, government leaders and their
representatives on Monday acknowledged the world's failure to stop the
killing - and expressed regrets in deeply personal terms.

"It is to the shame of the international community that this evil took place
under our noses and we did nothing," said British Foreign Secretary Jack
Straw. "I bitterly regret this and I'm deeply sorry for it."

British Prime Minister Tony Blair expressed "solidarity" with the relatives
in a message read out at the ceremonies and drew parallels between the
ethnic intolerance that spurred the Bosnian war and the terrorist bombings
in London on Thursday.

"The bombers seek to provoke hatred between religions and cultures," he
said. "It is our duty to humanity to ensure they never succeed."

Paddy Ashdown, Bosnia's international administrator, described Srebrenica as
the "worst crime to take place in Europe in the latter part of the 20th
century" - and the international community's failure to stop as "our
greatest shame."

He and other officials viewed a nearby mass grave containing the jumbled
bones of some 30 victims.

Outside, families of the dead hoisted a huge banner that read: "Europe's
shame - genocide."

The Srebrenica victims were among some 250,000 people killed in the 1992-95
war among Bosnian Muslims, Catholic Croats and Orthodox Serbs. About 16,500
bodies have been exhumed from more than 300 mass graves.

The alleged masterminds of the July 11, 1995, massacre - Bosnian Serb
wartime leader Radovan Karadzic and his military commander, Gen. Ratko
Mladic - have been indicted by the U.N. tribunal in The Hague, Netherlands,
for genocide and crimes against humanity. Both are still at large.

Serbian President Boris Tadic attended the service - a significant gesture
given Serbia's backing of the Bosnian Serbs during the war under former
Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic.

Ahead of Monday's ceremony, Tadic said he would come to "pay tribute to the
innocent victims of the crime committed there."

"It is necessary to establish full trust and cooperation in the region," he
said. "We have to break the circle of evil on the Balkans."

Post by c***@gmail.com
Dear Tony,
The manuscript became known as the Codex Sinaiticus (book from the
Sinai), is a Greek manuscript.

[c***@gmail.com]

Dear George,

A Christian is a 'saved' soul by Jesus death on the cross, who in
Christ's love and Spirit cannot deliberately take the life of another.
However, an unsaved soul who has killed may _later_ come to Christ. A
man who though he was a Christian for many years can suddenly come to
truly know Jesus' salvation and Holy Spirit.

Hence, 'Christian's are not terrorists/killers or any such thing, but
if other people label a group of men as Christians (as you are doing
now) then there is little a practicing Christian can do about it.

If practicing Christians cut others away from knowing their saviour
because they have sinful actions, then they are making the judgement on
others that only God can make. Paul (Saul) considered himself to be the
greatest sinner of all (a bit of a terrorist by todays standards ! )
and yet Jesus still gave him salvation and a chance of redemption and
reconciliation to God.

In Christ's love
Carol T

[harmony]

Post by c***@gmail.com
Dear George,
A Christian is a 'saved' soul by Jesus death on the cross,

stupid propaganda by con artist missionaries. this is so foolish that even
christ did not make this claim. if he did he wouldn't be divine as claimed.

Post by c***@gmail.com
who in
Christ's love and Spirit cannot deliberately take the life of another.
However, an unsaved soul who has killed may _later_ come to Christ. A
man who though he was a Christian for many years can suddenly come to
truly know Jesus' salvation and Holy Spirit.
Hence, 'Christian's are not terrorists/killers or any such thing, but
if other people label a group of men as Christians (as you are doing
now) then there is little a practicing Christian can do about it.
If practicing Christians cut others away from knowing their saviour
because they have sinful actions, then they are making the judgement on
others that only God can make. Paul (Saul) considered himself to be the
greatest sinner of all (a bit of a terrorist by todays standards ! )
and yet Jesus still gave him salvation and a chance of redemption and
reconciliation to God.
In Christ's love
Carol T

[c***@gmail.com]

stupid propaganda by con artist missionaries. this is so foolish that even christ did not make this claim. if he did he wouldn't be divine as claimed.<<<<<<<<

No, not propaganda, Jesus knew who He was, and by the voice of The
Prophets and The Holy Spirit He knew His death would be one of pure
sacrifice for us.

It's why John the Baptist questioned Him before others when He came
forward for baptism, because he too will have known what was about to
come.

"And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You,
and are You coming to me?" But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit
it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all
righteousness." Then he allowed Him. Mat 3:14-15


In Christ's love
Carol T

[harmony]

in historical sense, it would be a toss up between kirastanism and
mohamadism as to which one is most harmful to humanity. it bears noting that
both religions were started by mideast nuts.

the only difference is that the mideast kirastanis of old time could make
inroads into whites, and tame or terrify the whites into kirastanism
(missionaries used to call it "prosletizing" but have learned new marketing
lingo and now call it "proclaiming the word of god"), the mideast momedans
couldn't and still can't make any inroads in the white populations.

now it turns out that white kirastanis in europe have seen thr' the game of
original mideast-kirastanists, and are angry at themselves for having made a
complete ass of, and opting out of kirastanism in europe, and have chilled
out (although the american whites can't fully chill), and have sort created
thereby what the mommedans think is a "vacuum". the mideast mommedans,
therefore, think they can fill the vacuum, but the whites say, "no way,
jose; if you cheat me once, shame on you, but if you cheat me again, shame
on me". it seems like two people need to get the message of the white
europeans: one are the mommedanistas and the others are white american
kirastanistas. but would we be so lucky?

Post by tony
Why Say bad things about other religion when yours the same!!
Behind The Bible Fraud - What Was The Church Trying To Hide?
By Robert Adams
New Dawn Magazine.com
6-21-5
When I first spoke to a close Christian friend of mine about the
publishing of Tony Bushby's The Bible Fraud, her reaction was one that many
Christians have expressed, and one that made me aghast. She didn't want the
book available because it would "persuade them away from the Bible and the
word of God." Further discussions with her and many other Christians around
the world about The Bible Fraud all result in the Bible being quoted as the
ultimate reference for the apparent "words of God," and therefore the basis
for their arguments. The problem lies in that they believe the Bible is
infallible.
If we examine the oldest known Bible to date, the "Sinai Bible"
housed in the British Museum (I believe that, during his many years of
research, Tony had a private viewing of this priceless book), we find a
staggering 14,800 differences from today's Bible and yet it still remains
the word of God?
As Tony points out, the history of our 'genuine' Bibles is a
convoluted one. Firstly we cannot be sure that we have the full version as
it was originally intended. In 1415 the Church of Rome took an

extraordinary

Post by tony
step to destroy all knowledge of two second century Jewish books that it
said contained the true name of Jesus Christ. The Antipope Benedict XIII
firstly singled out for condemnation a secret Latin treatise called "Mar
Yesu" and then issued instructions to destroy all copies of the book of
Elxai. The Rabbinic fraternity once held the destroyed manuscripts with
great reverence for they were comprehensive original records reporting the
life of Rabbi Jesus.
Later, Pope Alexander VI ordered all copies of the Talmud destroyed,
with the Spanish Grand Inquisitor Tomas de Torquemada (1420-98) responsible
for the elimination of 6,000 volumes at Salamanca alone.
Solomon Romano (1554) also burnt many thousands of Hebrew scrolls
and, in 1559, every Hebrew book in the city of Prague was confiscated. The
mass destruction of Jewish books included hundreds of copies of the Old
Testament and caused the irretrievable loss of many original handwritten
documents.
The oldest text of the Old Testament that survived, before the
discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls" was said to be the Bodleian Codex
(Oxford), which was dated to circa 1100 AD. In an attempt by the church to
remove damaging Rabbinic information about Jesus Christ from the face of the
earth, the Inquisition burnt 12,000 volumes of the Talmud.
In 1607, forty-seven men (some records say fifty four) took two
years and nine months to re-write the Bible and make it ready for press. It
was, by the order of King James, issued with a set of personal 'rules' the
translators were to follow. Upon its completion in 1609, it was handed over
to the King James for his final approval. However, "It was self evident that
James was not competent to check their work and edit it, so he passed the
manuscripts onto the greatest genius of all time... Sir Francis Bacon"
The first English language manuscripts of the Bible remained in
Bacon's possession for nearly a year. During that time ... "he hammered the
various styles of the translators into the unity, rhythm, and music of
Shakespearean prose, wrote the prefaces and created the whole scheme of the
Authorized Version. At the completion of the editing, King James ordered a
'dedication to the King' to be drawn up and included in the opening pages.
He also wanted the phrase 'Appointed to be read in the churches' to appear
on the title page.
The King James Bible is considered by many today to be the
'original' Bible and therefore 'genuine' and all later revisions simply
counterfeits forged by 'higher critics'. Others think the King James Bible
is 'authentic' and 'authorized' and presents the original words of the
authors as translated into English from the 'original' Greek texts. However,
as Tony points out, the 'original' Greek text was not written until around
the mid fourth century and was a revised edition of writings compiled
decades earlier in Aramaic and Hebrew. Those earlier documents no longer
exist and the Bibles we have today are five linguistic removes from the
first bibles written. What was written in the 'original originals' is quite
unknown. It is important to remember that the words 'authorized' and
'original', as applied to the Bible do not mean 'genuine', 'authentic' or
'true'.
By the early third century, it became well noted that a problem was
occurring . politics! In 251AD, the number of Presbyter's (roving orator or
priest) writings had increased dramatically and bitter arguments raged
between opposing factions about their conflicting stories. According to
Presbyter Albius Theodoret (circa 255), there were "more than two hundred"
variant gospels in use in his time. In 313, groups of Presbyters and Biscops
(Bishops) violently clashed over the variations in their writings and "altar
was set against altar" in competing for an audience and territory.
When Emperor Constantine conquered the East in 324, he sent his
Spanish religious advisor, Osius of Cordoba, to Alexandria with letters to
several Biscops exhorting them to make peace among their own. But the
mission failed and Constantine, probably at the suggestions of Osius, then
issued a decree commanding all Presbyters and their subordinates "be mounted
on asses, mules and horses belonging to the public and travel to the city of
Nicaea" in the Roman province of Bithymia, the country of Asia. The
Presbyters were instructed by the Emperor to bring with them the manuscripts
from which they orated to the rabble (that's us!) "wrapped and bound in
leather".
Constantine saw in this developing system of belief the opportunity
to make a combined state religion and protect it by law. The first general
church council was thus convened and the year was 325.
On 21 June, the day of the Summer Solstice, (and under those cult
conditions) a total of 2048 "presbyters, deacons, sub-deacons, acolytes and
exorcists" gathered at Nicaea to decide what Christianity really was, what
it would be, what writings were to be used and who was to be it's God.
Ancient church evidence established that a new 'god' was to be
approved by the Roman Emperor and an earlier attempt (circa 210) to deify
either Judas Khrestus or his twin brother Rabbi Jesus (or somebody else) had
been 'declined'. Therefore, as late as 325, the Christian religion did not
have an official god.
After a long and bitter debate, a vote was finally taken and it was
with a majority show of hands that Judas Khrestus and Rabbi Jesus both
became God (161votes for and 157 votes against). The Emperor effectively
joined elements of the two individual life stories of the twin brothers into
a singular creation. The doctrine of the Celtic / British church of the west
was democratically attached to the Presbyters stories of the east.
A deification ceremony was then performed 'Apotheosis'. Thus the
deified ones were then called 'saviours' and looked upon as gods. Temples,
altars, and images with attributes of divinity were then erected and public
holidays proclaimed on their birthdays.
Following the original example set by the deification of Caesar,
their funerals were dramatized as the scene of their resurrection and
immortality. All these godly attributes passed as a legal right to Emperor
Constantine's new deity, Jesus Christ.
The Emperor then instructed Bishop Eusebius to compile a uniform
collection of new writings "bound together as one" using the stories from
the large collection of Presbyters as his reference source. Eusebius was to
arrange for the production of "fifty sumptuous copies ... to be written on
parchment in a legible manner, and in a convenient portable form, by
professional scribes thoroughly accomplished in the art". This was the first
mention of finished copies of a Christian 'New Testament' in the history of
mankind.
As one can imagine, to condense the real life of the Jesus Christ,
the Church and His teachings with supporting evidence into a short article
is very difficult. It is therefore wise for those who wish to have
supportable evidence to read and study Tony Bushby's epic work, The Bible
Fraud, along with it's detailed blood lines (family trees) and over 869
references. (see www.thebiblefraud.com)
However, attempting to summarize what Tony has written..... in 325
AD, the first Christian council was called at Nicaea to bring the stories of
twin brothers, Jesus 'the Rabbi' and Judas Khrestus into one deity that we
now know as Jesus Christ. Tony says they were not born of virgin birth but
to Nabatean Arab Mariamne Herod (now known as the Virgin Mary) and fathered
by Tiberius ben Panthera, a Roman Centurion. The brothers were raised in the
Essene community and became Khrists of their faith. Rabbi Jesus later was
initiated in Egypt at the highest of levels similar to the 33rd degree of
Freemasonry of which many Prime ministers and Presidents around the world
today are members. He then later married three wives, one of whom we know as
a Mary Magdalene, a Druidic Princess, stole the Torah from the temple and
moved to Lud, now London.
Tony believes the reason Jesus stole the Torah was that he said it
contained "a very special secret", which he was going to reveal that secret
to the world. He was stoned to death and the Torah taken from him before he
could.
The elder brother, Judas Khrestus, with his "Khrestian" followers
conspired to take the throne of Rome, his royal birthright, and was
captured, tried, and was sentenced to be crucified. (The "Khrestians" and
the Essenic army, the Nazarenes, would today be likened to terrorists.) At
the trial, Judas exercised his royal birthright to have a replacement in
Simon of Cyrene (Luke 23:41) and then was sold as a slave to live out his
days as a carpenter in India.
Rabbi Jesus spent a considerable amount of time at the Palace of the
British in Rome and sometime around 48 AD, he left for Egypt to pursue his
greatest esoteric goal. The spiritual knowledge from his secret education in
the Essene and Druid movements was soon to be elevated to the highest level
possible - initiation into the innermost rite of the Egyptian temples.
It was probable that Rabbi Jesus' earlier initiation into both the
Essene and Druid schools played a major part in his acceptance into the
Egyptian school. The Druids could claim a very early origin and the essence
of their wisdom was also that of the Essenes. In the case of the Essenes, it
is possible to show that their movement was specifically established to
preserve secret information, for they knew and used the sacred writing of
the Initiates. The full meaning of the point being made by Bushby is that in
the case of all Secret Schools, the inner and ultimate Mystery was revealed
only to a High Initiate.
Those who were initiated into the Ancient mysteries took a solemn
oath never to reveal what had passed within the sacred walls. Every year
only a comparatively few Egyptian initiations were conducted, and the number
of persons who knew their secrets was never at any time large. The
initiations always took place with the onset of darkness and the candidate
was entranced for periods of varying length, depending upon the level of the
degree for which he had entered.
The first initiatory step involved a forty-day procedure that
basically involved purification, not only in physical form, but dissolving
all tendencies to evil thoughts, purifying the mind as well. It appears that
he would have fasted, alternatively on vegetables, juices and very special
herbal concoctions.
The New Testament recorded that this happened to Rabbi Jesus who
"was led into the desert.... and he fasted forty days and forty nights"
(Matt. 4:1-2).
This trial period involved more than just fasting. During the forty
days and nights' ordeal, Tony says the candidate was required to study
astronomical charts to supplement his skills in astronomy and memorize
charts of the heavens. They were also given a particular ritual from which
to memorize certain passwords, secret signs and handclasps, skills that are
still practiced to this day in Freemasonry.
These initiations were not limited to Egypt. The ancient
civilizations inherited these Mysteries from a remote antiquity and they
constituted part of a primitive revelation from the gods to the human race.
Almost every people of pre-Christian times possessed its institution and
tradition of the mysteries. The Romans, the Druids of Britain, the Greeks,
the Cretans, the Syrians, the Hindus, the Persians, the Maya and the
American Indians, among others, had corresponding temples and rites with a
system of graduated illuminations for the initiates.
The modern world knows little of these ancient rites yet they were
conducted in a huge variety of buildings the world over.
The 'Towers' that are found throughout the East in Asia were
directly connected with the Mystery-initiations. The candidates for
initiation were placed in them for three days and three nights, whenever
there was no temple with a subterranean crypt close at hand.
In this aspect of the initiatory procedure, Tony points out a direct
Gospel parallel with Rabbi Jesus saying, "After three days I shall rise
again", for he knew the finishing process he was to undertake would take
three days being a symbol of the period of time required to complete a
condition of development. The ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic texts speak of
an initiate as 'twice-born', and he was permitted to add to his name the
words 'he who has renewed his life', so that on some ancient
tomb-inscriptions archaeologists still discover these phases descriptive of
the spiritual status of the deceased person.
So little did the later Gospel writers understand the initiatory
process that they never perceived they were developing a story that included
a Rabbi's (and Arch Druid of Britain) experience in an Egyptian Mystery
School.
St Austin (c. 380) asserted that it was generally known in church
books concerning magic". In the Gospel of Nicodemus, the Jews brought the
same accusation before Pontius Pilate, "Did we not tell you he was a
magician?" Celsus (c. 178) spoke of the same charge. In the Clementine
Recognitions, the accusation was brought against Rabbi Jesus that he did not
perform any miracles but practiced magic and carried about with him the
figure of a seated skeleton.
Jewish tradition invariably asserted that Rabbi Jesus learned
'magic' in Egypt. Bushby says the kernel of this persistent accusation may
perhaps be reduced to the simple historical element that Rabbi Jesus went to
Egypt and returned with far wider and more enlightened views than those of
his former religious associates.
Now, I'm sure that many of you are having trouble grasping some of
the ideas presented in this article and I congratulate you on taking the
effort to read this far. We all need to demand our local Church, the Church
scholars, theologians and media make an open examination of the evidence
compiled in Tony Bushby's The Bible Fraud. It may rattle some core beliefs
but what is more important to you . the truth or what sits comfortably
because it's what you've known all you life?
I leave you with a quote from one of the conspirators
"How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of
Christ has been for us." Pope Leo X (1513-1521)
Article first published in New Dawn Magazine No 71, March 2002

[c***@gmail.com]

No one can convert a believer of God into a believer of God, but
someone may recognise that they are simply carrying a label of
believer.

In which case there are avenues for them to come fully to Christ.

In Christ's love
Carol T

[George]

Tell me about Christians?

Thousands Mark Srebrenica Massacre Date

Published: 7/11/05


SREBRENICA, Bosnia-Herzegovina (AP) - World leaders joined 50,000 people
Monday to remember the victims of Europe's worst massacre since World War
II - the death of nearly 8,000 Muslims 10 years ago when Serbs overran the
U.N.-protected enclave of Srebrenica.

The sound of Muslim prayer echoed through a loudspeaker as relatives
wandered among 610 caskets containing newly identified remains. After a
religious service, the caskets were passed from hand to hand toward the
graves and buried. The sound of dirt striking the coffins and the weeping of
women competed with a voice reading out the names of the victims.

Fatima Budic huddled over the coffin of her son before the burial, alone in
her grief.

"They killed my entire life and the only thing I want now is to see the
guilty ones pay for it," sobbed Budic, next to the coffin of her 14-year-old
son, Velija. Budic's husband and Velija's 16-year-old brother have never
been found.

Government leaders and dignitaries were among the crowd gathered to
commemorate the 10th anniversary of the killings that began July 11, 1995,
when Bosnian Serb soldiers overran Srebrenica - a U.N. "safe zone."
Outmanned and outgunned Dutch U.N. troops watched. The males were led off
and slaughtered, and their bodies dumped in mass graves throughout eastern
Bosnia.

Forensics experts have exhumed more than 5,000 bodies, and identified 2,032
through DNA analysis and other techniques. More than 1,300 Srebrenica
victims are already buried at the cemetery that is part of the memorial
center. In all, nearly 8,000 were killed.

While the slaughter spurred the NATO bombings of Serb positions across
Bosnia that forced the Serbs to seek peace, government leaders and their
representatives on Monday acknowledged the world's failure to stop the
killing - and expressed regrets in deeply personal terms.

"It is to the shame of the international community that this evil took place
under our noses and we did nothing," said British Foreign Secretary Jack
Straw. "I bitterly regret this and I'm deeply sorry for it."

British Prime Minister Tony Blair expressed "solidarity" with the relatives
in a message read out at the ceremonies and drew parallels between the
ethnic intolerance that spurred the Bosnian war and the terrorist bombings
in London on Thursday.

"The bombers seek to provoke hatred between religions and cultures," he
said. "It is our duty to humanity to ensure they never succeed."

Paddy Ashdown, Bosnia's international administrator, described Srebrenica as
the "worst crime to take place in Europe in the latter part of the 20th
century" - and the international community's failure to stop as "our
greatest shame."

He and other officials viewed a nearby mass grave containing the jumbled
bones of some 30 victims.

Outside, families of the dead hoisted a huge banner that read: "Europe's
shame - genocide."

The Srebrenica victims were among some 250,000 people killed in the 1992-95
war among Bosnian Muslims, Catholic Croats and Orthodox Serbs. About 16,500
bodies have been exhumed from more than 300 mass graves.

The alleged masterminds of the July 11, 1995, massacre - Bosnian Serb
wartime leader Radovan Karadzic and his military commander, Gen. Ratko
Mladic - have been indicted by the U.N. tribunal in The Hague, Netherlands,
for genocide and crimes against humanity. Both are still at large.

Serbian President Boris Tadic attended the service - a significant gesture
given Serbia's backing of the Bosnian Serbs during the war under former
Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic.

Ahead of Monday's ceremony, Tadic said he would come to "pay tribute to the
innocent victims of the crime committed there."

"It is necessary to establish full trust and cooperation in the region," he
said. "We have to break the circle of evil on the Balkans."

Post by c***@gmail.com
No one can convert a believer of God into a believer of God, but
someone may recognise that they are simply carrying a label of
believer.
In which case there are avenues for them to come fully to Christ.
In Christ's love
Carol T

[Joking You]

Perhaps it was payback for the Muslim practice of administrating a "child
tax". Wherein each non Muslim family had to provide one child to be trained
as a fierce warrior and then those same children would be used against their
families.

Post by George
Tell me about Christians?
Thousands Mark Srebrenica Massacre Date
Published: 7/11/05
SREBRENICA, Bosnia-Herzegovina (AP) - World leaders joined 50,000 people
Monday to remember the victims of Europe's worst massacre since World War
II - the death of nearly 8,000 Muslims 10 years ago when Serbs overran the
U.N.-protected enclave of Srebrenica.
The sound of Muslim prayer echoed through a loudspeaker as relatives
wandered among 610 caskets containing newly identified remains. After a
religious service, the caskets were passed from hand to hand toward the
graves and buried. The sound of dirt striking the coffins and the weeping
of women competed with a voice reading out the names of the victims.
Fatima Budic huddled over the coffin of her son before the burial, alone
in her grief.
"They killed my entire life and the only thing I want now is to see the
guilty ones pay for it," sobbed Budic, next to the coffin of her
14-year-old son, Velija. Budic's husband and Velija's 16-year-old brother
have never been found.
Government leaders and dignitaries were among the crowd gathered to
commemorate the 10th anniversary of the killings that began July 11, 1995,
when Bosnian Serb soldiers overran Srebrenica - a U.N. "safe zone."
Outmanned and outgunned Dutch U.N. troops watched. The males were led off
and slaughtered, and their bodies dumped in mass graves throughout eastern
Bosnia.
Forensics experts have exhumed more than 5,000 bodies, and identified
2,032 through DNA analysis and other techniques. More than 1,300
Srebrenica victims are already buried at the cemetery that is part of the
memorial center. In all, nearly 8,000 were killed.
While the slaughter spurred the NATO bombings of Serb positions across
Bosnia that forced the Serbs to seek peace, government leaders and their
representatives on Monday acknowledged the world's failure to stop the
killing - and expressed regrets in deeply personal terms.
"It is to the shame of the international community that this evil took
place under our noses and we did nothing," said British Foreign Secretary
Jack Straw. "I bitterly regret this and I'm deeply sorry for it."
British Prime Minister Tony Blair expressed "solidarity" with the
relatives in a message read out at the ceremonies and drew parallels
between the ethnic intolerance that spurred the Bosnian war and the
terrorist bombings in London on Thursday.
"The bombers seek to provoke hatred between religions and cultures," he
said. "It is our duty to humanity to ensure they never succeed."
Paddy Ashdown, Bosnia's international administrator, described Srebrenica
as the "worst crime to take place in Europe in the latter part of the 20th
century" - and the international community's failure to stop as "our
greatest shame."
He and other officials viewed a nearby mass grave containing the jumbled
bones of some 30 victims.
Outside, families of the dead hoisted a huge banner that read: "Europe's
shame - genocide."
The Srebrenica victims were among some 250,000 people killed in the
1992-95 war among Bosnian Muslims, Catholic Croats and Orthodox Serbs.
About 16,500 bodies have been exhumed from more than 300 mass graves.
The alleged masterminds of the July 11, 1995, massacre - Bosnian Serb
wartime leader Radovan Karadzic and his military commander, Gen. Ratko
Mladic - have been indicted by the U.N. tribunal in The Hague,
Netherlands, for genocide and crimes against humanity. Both are still at
large.
Serbian President Boris Tadic attended the service - a significant gesture
given Serbia's backing of the Bosnian Serbs during the war under former
Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic.
Ahead of Monday's ceremony, Tadic said he would come to "pay tribute to
the innocent victims of the crime committed there."
"It is necessary to establish full trust and cooperation in the region,"
he said. "We have to break the circle of evil on the Balkans."

Post by c***@gmail.com
No one can convert a believer of God into a believer of God, but
someone may recognise that they are simply carrying a label of
believer.
In which case there are avenues for them to come fully to Christ.
In Christ's love
Carol T

[ªk½ü¤jªk¦n]

Islam Will Replace Collapsing Amerikan Empire

"Warning there are Hindu forgers and trolls amongst us, proceed
with caution"

[George]

32 Children Die in Baghdad Blast
Agencies

BAGHDAD, 14 July 2005 - Thirty-two children were killed yesterday when a
suicide bomber blew up his car near US soldiers as they handed out candies
in a Baghdad neighborhood.

Another 31, mostly children, were also wounded in the blast, while a US
soldier died and three were injured, hospital and US sources said.

Baghdad's Kindi Hospital said it received 25 bodies while Ibn Al-Nafis said
it received seven. Both said all of the dead were under the age of 15 except
for one 18-year-old.

Terrified parents heard the shattering explosion and raced outside their
homes in the Shiite neighborhood of east Baghdad to discover the worst -
mangled, bloodied bodies of their children strewn about the street.

A pile of children's slippers lay near the blast crater in the
blood-spattered street after the gruesome attack.

It was the second major suicide bombing in Baghdad this week. A suicide
bomber killed 25 people Sunday at an army recruiting center. One victim was
a four-day old infant, who was slightly cut by flying glass and debris,
neighbors said.

The bomber used a brown Toyota Land Cruiser with a license plate from the
southern city of Basra, police said.

"There were some American troops blocking the highway when a US Humvee came
near a gathering of children," said Karim Shukir, 42. "US soldiers began to
hand them candies. Then suddenly, a speeding car with the bomber showed up
and struck both the Humvee and the children."

"The car bomber made a deliberate decision to attack one of our vehicles as
the soldiers were engaged in a peaceful operation with Iraqi citizens," said
Maj. Russ Goemaere, a spokesman for Task Force Baghdad. "The terrorist
undoubtedly saw the children around the Humvee as he attacked. The complete
disregard for civilian life in this attack is absolutely abhorrent."

Following yesterday's bombing, which occurred about 10:50 a.m., charred
remains of an engine block wrapped in barbed wire sat in the road. A child's
bicycle was crumpled beside the street, which was splattered with pools of
blood. US and Iraqi troops in the area broadcast messages in Arabic by
loudspeakers after the attack, warning Iraqi civilians not to approach
military vehicles.

An elderly woman dressed in traditional black beat her chest in front of her
house in grief. Others meandered about in the broiling heat, inspecting the
damage to their homes.

In a separate attack yesterday, a roadside bomb exploded near an American
patrol in eastern Baghdad, killing a 7-year-old child and seriously wounding
a woman, police said. At least three Iraqi soldiers were killed in two
shootouts in western Baghdad.

Two Iraqi civilians were killed and seven injured yesterday in a mortar
attack in Iraq's third largest city, Mosul, the US military said.

Bodies of 11 Sunni men were found yesterday hours after they were arrested
by Iraqi security forces, two Sunni organizations said. Sunnis claimed the
men were victims of government brutality against their community, which
forms the core of the insurgency.

Post by ªk½ü¤jªk¦n
Islam Will Replace Collapsing Amerikan Empire
"Warning there are Hindu forgers and trolls amongst us, proceed
with caution"