Discussion:
Ruth Kelly threatens to close Islamic schools
(too old to reply)
habshi
2006-08-31 06:29:51 UTC
Permalink
For preaching social isolation -women in stupid hijabs and
terrorism ie the verses in the Quran like 9.5 kill the unbelievers ,
8.39 wage war till Islam rules the world
4.34 flog any woman who dares speak up .
The problem is not the schools , its the mosques
Clough
2006-08-31 05:17:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by habshi
For preaching social isolation -women in stupid hijabs and
terrorism ie the verses in the Quran like 9.5 kill the unbelievers ,
8.39 wage war till Islam rules the world
4.34 flog any woman who dares speak up .
The problem is not the schools , its the mosques
The problem is the whole idiot cult of Islam and its insane beliefs
and doctrines.

clough
allan tracy
2006-08-31 11:23:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clough
Post by habshi
For preaching social isolation -women in stupid hijabs and
terrorism ie the verses in the Quran like 9.5 kill the unbelievers ,
8.39 wage war till Islam rules the world
4.34 flog any woman who dares speak up .
The problem is not the schools , its the mosques
The problem is the whole idiot cult of Islam and its insane beliefs
and doctrines.
clough
Could we substitute Opus Dei for Islam in any of this do you think?
Clough
2006-09-02 17:22:46 UTC
Permalink
On 31 Aug 2006 04:23:02 -0700, "allan tracy"
Post by allan tracy
Post by Clough
Post by habshi
For preaching social isolation -women in stupid hijabs and
terrorism ie the verses in the Quran like 9.5 kill the unbelievers ,
8.39 wage war till Islam rules the world
4.34 flog any woman who dares speak up .
The problem is not the schools , its the mosques
The problem is the whole idiot cult of Islam and its insane beliefs
and doctrines.
clough
Could we substitute Opus Dei for Islam in any of this do you think?
Yes.

Opus Dei, Scientology, Moonies, Islam, they're all as crackers as each
other.

And all of them bloody dangerous if they get any social or political
influence.

Clough
t***@hotmail.com
2006-08-31 12:01:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clough
Post by habshi
For preaching social isolation -women in stupid hijabs and
terrorism ie the verses in the Quran like 9.5 kill the unbelievers ,
8.39 wage war till Islam rules the world
4.34 flog any woman who dares speak up .
The problem is not the schools , its the mosques
The problem is the whole idiot cult of Islam and its insane beliefs
and doctrines.
Not forgetting christianity that went through similar nonsense when
the religion was a similar age to Islam. I suppose the same could be
said of any other religion but with christianity the merkins seem to
be taking that back into the middle ages.
pete
--
http://www.brazierbridgewood.blogspot.com/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ipswich/
harmony
2006-08-31 16:20:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@hotmail.com
Post by Clough
Post by habshi
For preaching social isolation -women in stupid hijabs and
terrorism ie the verses in the Quran like 9.5 kill the unbelievers ,
8.39 wage war till Islam rules the world
4.34 flog any woman who dares speak up .
The problem is not the schools , its the mosques
The problem is the whole idiot cult of Islam and its insane beliefs
and doctrines.
Not forgetting christianity that went through similar nonsense when
the religion was a similar age to Islam. I suppose the same could be
said of any other religion but with christianity the merkins seem to
be taking that back into the middle ages.
pete
--
http://www.brazierbridgewood.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ipswich/
outlaw monotheism.
t***@hotmail.com
2006-08-31 17:33:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by harmony
Post by t***@hotmail.com
Post by Clough
Post by habshi
For preaching social isolation -women in stupid hijabs and
terrorism ie the verses in the Quran like 9.5 kill the unbelievers ,
8.39 wage war till Islam rules the world
4.34 flog any woman who dares speak up .
The problem is not the schools , its the mosques
The problem is the whole idiot cult of Islam and its insane beliefs
and doctrines.
Not forgetting christianity that went through similar nonsense when
the religion was a similar age to Islam. I suppose the same could be
said of any other religion but with christianity the merkins seem to
be taking that back into the middle ages.
outlaw monotheism.
Why not tolerate anything that does not impinge on others in anyway,
shape or form. I suppose that means do not tolerate any religion:-)
pete

--
http://www.brazierbridgewood.blogspot.com/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ipswich/
Clough
2006-09-02 17:27:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@hotmail.com
Post by Clough
The problem is the whole idiot cult of Islam and its insane beliefs
and doctrines.
Not forgetting christianity that went through similar nonsense when
the religion was a similar age to Islam. I suppose the same could be
said of any other religion but with christianity the merkins seem to
be taking that back into the middle ages.
I'm not so sure the Merkins ever left the middle ages.

The nutty Crazy Christian cults they revel in over there are in every
way as bonkers as Islam. Some of the Merkin televangelists are as
unhinged as any mad Mullah. And the rest aren't so sane, either.

Clough
Molesworth
2006-09-03 03:08:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clough
Post by t***@hotmail.com
Post by Clough
The problem is the whole idiot cult of Islam and its insane beliefs
and doctrines.
Not forgetting christianity that went through similar nonsense when
the religion was a similar age to Islam. I suppose the same could be
said of any other religion but with christianity the merkins seem to
be taking that back into the middle ages.
I'm not so sure the Merkins ever left the middle ages.
The nutty Crazy Christian cults they revel in over there are in every
way as bonkers as Islam. Some of the Merkin televangelists are as
unhinged as any mad Mullah. And the rest aren't so sane, either.
Clough
The thing to remember is that most Americans live in rural communities.
Also they don't have the advantage(?) of the kind of health and social
services common in UK, nor the density of population. This leads to the
church(es) being the focal point of assistance, social life and mutual
support for the townspeople.

I'm English and live in a small town where the nearest motorway is 100
miles away in any direction. The nearest big town (about the size of
Andover) is the same distance, again in any direction.

The Americans I know are friendly, generous, intensely patriotic and
generally lovely people, and they do take their Christianity seriously.
That doesn't make them 'nutty'.

Molesworth
Max Muir
2006-09-04 02:53:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clough
Post by habshi
For preaching social isolation -women in stupid hijabs and
terrorism ie the verses in the Quran like 9.5 kill the unbelievers ,
8.39 wage war till Islam rules the world
4.34 flog any woman who dares speak up .
The problem is not the schools , its the mosques
The problem is the whole idiot cult of Islam and its insane beliefs
and doctrines.
clough
And the British liberal-left who have fostered it and defend it,
overtly and otherwise.
Clough
2006-09-04 16:53:47 UTC
Permalink
On 3 Sep 2006 19:53:13 -0700, "Max Muir"
Post by Max Muir
Post by Clough
The problem is the whole idiot cult of Islam and its insane beliefs
and doctrines.
And the British liberal-left who have fostered it and defend it,
overtly and otherwise.
That is the most amazing thing about the whole issue of Islam.

Why do people who regard themselves as left leaning liberals go out of
their way to defend and forward the interests of an insane medieval
religious cult that wallows in superstition, misogyny, homophobia,
repression and illiberalism? You would think a crazy cult like that
would be a natural target for their scorn.

You don't see them going starry eyed over Scientology or Mooniesm,
which are just as mad as Muhammedanism, but mention Islam and they
spring fiercly to its defence, battering down all critics with howls
of "Islamophobia."

Very wierd. I certainly do not understand it.

Clough
Richard Miller
2006-09-04 17:43:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clough
On 3 Sep 2006 19:53:13 -0700, "Max Muir"
Post by Max Muir
Post by Clough
The problem is the whole idiot cult of Islam and its insane beliefs
and doctrines.
And the British liberal-left who have fostered it and defend it,
overtly and otherwise.
That is the most amazing thing about the whole issue of Islam.
Why do people who regard themselves as left leaning liberals go out of
their way to defend and forward the interests of an insane medieval
religious cult that wallows in superstition, misogyny, homophobia,
repression and illiberalism? You would think a crazy cult like that
would be a natural target for their scorn.
No, actually the most amazing thing is why those who regard themselves
as on the right demonise a culture in which its traditional values of
respect for the family and mutual self-support is so heavily ingrained.

Hint: it is not entirely coincidental that there are also these
downsides to that society, as there were within Western families when
such societal norms were enforced by peer pressure.
--
Richard Miller
Clough
2006-09-04 19:07:21 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 4 Sep 2006 18:43:15 +0100, Richard Miller
Post by Richard Miller
Post by Clough
That is the most amazing thing about the whole issue of Islam.
Why do people who regard themselves as left leaning liberals go out of
their way to defend and forward the interests of an insane medieval
religious cult that wallows in superstition, misogyny, homophobia,
repression and illiberalism? You would think a crazy cult like that
would be a natural target for their scorn.
No, actually the most amazing thing is why those who regard themselves
as on the right demonise a culture in which its traditional values of
respect for the family and mutual self-support is so heavily ingrained.
That is rather amazing, too.

You would think that raving right wing, male chauvinist, homo hating
'family values' nut jobs would have a great deal in common with Islam
and be rather warmly inclined towards it. All that puritanism and
keeping women in their place and whatnot is right up their street.

As it is, the right wing repressive retards who rail against Islam are
the ones who have most in common with it, while left wing liberals,
who you would think would be most at odds with the tenets of medieval
superstitions, are its most avid supporters and defenders.

Weird.
Post by Richard Miller
Hint: it is not entirely coincidental that there are also these
downsides to that society, as there were within Western families when
such societal norms were enforced by peer pressure.
Support for homo hating, wife beating bigotry in Western families of a
bygone age (or maybe not so bygone) isn't as easily found in
Christianity as it is in Islam. If followers of religions are inspired
by the founders of their faiths, then Christians are inspired by a
love everybody hippy wimp, while Moslems are inspired by a
bloodthirsty and murderous warlord.

Therein lies a fundamental difference between the two faiths.

Clough
Richard Miller
2006-09-04 20:35:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clough
Support for homo hating, wife beating bigotry in Western families of a
bygone age (or maybe not so bygone) isn't as easily found in
Christianity as it is in Islam. If followers of religions are inspired
by the founders of their faiths, then Christians are inspired by a love
everybody hippy wimp, while Moslems are inspired by a bloodthirsty and
murderous warlord.
Therein lies a fundamental difference between the two faiths.
That's as may be, but the amount of death, violence and hatred generated
by Christianity makes that pretty irrelevant. And there are some
incredibly perverse attitudes hiding behind the most puritan forms of
Christianity.
--
Richard Miller
Max Muir
2006-09-05 02:35:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Miller
Post by Clough
Support for homo hating, wife beating bigotry in Western families of a
bygone age (or maybe not so bygone) isn't as easily found in
Christianity as it is in Islam. If followers of religions are inspired
by the founders of their faiths, then Christians are inspired by a love
everybody hippy wimp, while Moslems are inspired by a bloodthirsty and
murderous warlord.
Therein lies a fundamental difference between the two faiths.
That's as may be, but the amount of death, violence and hatred generated
by Christianity makes that pretty irrelevant. And there are some
incredibly perverse attitudes hiding behind the most puritan forms of
Christianity.
--
Richard Miller
Anything like this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/122670.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2209683.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5285726.stm
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1617/16170640.htm
http://www.anti-slaverysociety.addr.com/hieroras.htm
http://www.fluxfactory.org/otr/kennedyopensecrets.htm
http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0306/feature1/
Clough
2006-09-05 06:01:26 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 4 Sep 2006 21:35:16 +0100, Richard Miller
Post by Richard Miller
Post by Clough
Support for homo hating, wife beating bigotry in Western families of a
bygone age (or maybe not so bygone) isn't as easily found in
Christianity as it is in Islam. If followers of religions are inspired
by the founders of their faiths, then Christians are inspired by a love
everybody hippy wimp, while Moslems are inspired by a bloodthirsty and
murderous warlord.
Therein lies a fundamental difference between the two faiths.
That's as may be, but the amount of death, violence and hatred generated
by Christianity makes that pretty irrelevant. And there are some
incredibly perverse attitudes hiding behind the most puritan forms of
Christianity.
Christianity in the UK and Europe in general is a pretty watered down
affair that hardly anybody takes seriously. It is best epitomised by
cucumber sandwiches on the vicarage lawn on a boring Sunday afternoon.

The USA is a different matter. The raging Evengelical Christian
lunatics over there are as mad as any fire breathing, jihad preaching
Mullah. They are arguably more dangerous, too, as they have power and
influence in the worlds militarily most powerful nation as it careers
around the globe like a loose cannon smashing everything in its way.

These crazy religious cults can be dangerous. They should be opposed,
not fawned over and supported. The teachings of Islam and the example
of the murderous nut job who founded it place it firmly in the
category of crazy cults with inhuman beliefs and practices. Which
makes it difficult to understand why left wing liberals go starry eyed
and weak kneed over Islam and are quick to leap to its defence and
condemn those who dare to criticise it.

Clough
Neil Boss
2006-09-16 08:59:02 UTC
Permalink
True. I guess what is the bottom line is that both Islam and Christianity
are evil "faiths" created bythe devil himself.
Post by Richard Miller
That's as may be, but the amount of death, violence and hatred generated
by Christianity makes that pretty irrelevant. And there are some
incredibly perverse attitudes hiding behind the most puritan forms of
Christianity.
--
Richard Miller
Richard Miller
2006-09-16 10:23:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Boss
True. I guess what is the bottom line is that both Islam and Christianity
are evil "faiths" created bythe devil himself.
We are always taught to think that "love" (personal, religious,
whatever) is good, and "hate" is bad. Yet look at the number of murders
caused by "love". Look at the dreadful things that are done in its name.
Love can be a very dangerous force.

For a very good example of an evil "Christian", you need look no further
than Fred Phelps. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps

I tend to work on the basis that if people leave me to get on with my
life, I am happy to let them get on with theirs. So long as you don't
harm other people, who cares? And many Muslims share that "live and let
live" attitude in their daily lives, as do many Christians, regardless
of what the extremists in either religion might say.

But I do object to the concept of religious schools. If Muslims want to
have their equivalent of Sunday Schools to teach their faith and
culture, that is fine, but I believe that mainstream education should be
secular.
--
Richard Miller
Neil Boss
2006-09-16 23:03:05 UTC
Permalink
Maybe that is what you believe BUT your leaders have spent a great deal of
time and effort to erode that principle away not only in your backyard but
in other peoples countries. By rewriting history and supporting Islamic
extermism when it meant that they could gain advantage through creating
problems and destablising other nations.

Most Muslims are quite like most people they are not going to stick their
neck out. However, that does not mean that they believe in secular values,
etc. Do you see a Muslim activist oppossing Islamic values in favour of
Secular one's? How many condemn the past acts of Muslims let alone the
present one's?
Post by Richard Miller
But I do object to the concept of religious schools. If Muslims want to
have their equivalent of Sunday Schools to teach their faith and
culture, that is fine, but I believe that mainstream education should be
secular.
--
Richard Miller
Clough
2006-09-17 06:12:06 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 11:23:17 +0100, Richard Miller
Post by Richard Miller
I tend to work on the basis that if people leave me to get on with my
life, I am happy to let them get on with theirs. So long as you don't
harm other people, who cares? And many Muslims share that "live and let
live" attitude in their daily lives, as do many Christians, regardless
of what the extremists in either religion might say.
Yes, that is also my position.

But it is not without a problem.

It means that the religiously inclined must accept that they and their
belief exist within a metaposition of secularism, mutual tolerance and
acceptance.

Many religious people cannot do that. For them their belief is
absolute and exclusive.

As you pointed out with one example, the USA is full of dangerous
evangelical lunatics who would love to destroy the secular nature of
Western societies and replace it with their own bigoted intolerance.

And Islam is a special case amongst religions in that it is also an
all encompassing socio-political movement that defines the total
context in which people exist.

There can be no metacontext for Islam. There is only total submission.

You pointed out that there are many Muslims with a 'live and let live'
attitude.

That is true, but it is only true in direct proportion to the distance
from the core beliefs of Islam that those Muslims are.

Islam just does not have the 'Give unto Ceasar' separation of church
and state that Christianity has and which allows Christians to exist
in a secular and liberal humanist metacontext.

I fear we are going to have great problems with Islam in our midst
unless Muslims can be made to understand that in the West, secularism
and liberal humanism are paramount and this cannot be compromised in
any way.

This is beginning to be dimly realised by politicians who speak
whistfully and wishfully about a 'Muslim Reformation' and the need for
an 'European Islam'. That is, an Islam that is not really Islam, but
something else more acceptable to them and more compatible with
European values.

I also would love to see an emasculated, washed out and watered down
version of Islam that can happily coexist with the emasculated, washed
out and watered down versions of Christianity we have in Europe. But
we are a long way from that happening, if it ever can happen.

A complete ban on all religious schools would be a great step in the
right direction, although certainly Sunday schools and the like where
children can be immersed in whatever bullshit their parents believe
are certainly acceptable.

All talk of empowering Muslims and encouraging and inviting them to
take part in the political process is insane. It is a crazy as
deliberatly empowering Scientologists and encouraging and inviting
members of Opus Dei to take part in the political process.

Of course, they can do if they want, but they should not be
deliberatly encouraged and empowered. For myself, I would be very much
opposed to them.

Clough
Max Muir
2006-09-04 22:28:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Miller
Post by Clough
On 3 Sep 2006 19:53:13 -0700, "Max Muir"
Post by Max Muir
Post by Clough
The problem is the whole idiot cult of Islam and its insane beliefs
and doctrines.
And the British liberal-left who have fostered it and defend it,
overtly and otherwise.
That is the most amazing thing about the whole issue of Islam.
Why do people who regard themselves as left leaning liberals go out of
their way to defend and forward the interests of an insane medieval
religious cult that wallows in superstition, misogyny, homophobia,
repression and illiberalism? You would think a crazy cult like that
would be a natural target for their scorn.
No, actually the most amazing thing is why those who regard themselves
as on the right demonise a culture in which its traditional values of
respect for the family and mutual self-support is so heavily ingrained.
Hi Richard,
I don't see the respect you mention...

1. Child marriage in Iran (Mut'a)
http://www.parstimes.com/women/child_marriage.html

2. http://www.gvnet.com/humantrafficking/Iran.htm
Slavery

3. Torture and Religious Misogyny
http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200504040752.asp
"The brutal treatment of Iranian women by the mullahcracy is a daily
occurrence, not an isolated case."

4. Religious child prostitution
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1840
"Last August, Atefeh Rajabi, a 16-year-old girl in this town, was
publicly hanged for what the religious judge called "acts
incompatible with chastity".

5. Honour killings
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5285726.stm

6. Religious police
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1874471.stm

7. Hudood (Stoning of Adulters)
http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/legislation/zia_po_1979/ord7_1979.html

8 Child slavery
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2189789,00.html

9. Domestic abuse
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1507330.stm
http://www.thesouthasian.org/archives/2004/domestic_violence_the_unreport.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3589899.stm

10 Acid attacks
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2832769.stm

It is true that Muslims have long lasting marriages in the UK
but I ascribe this to isolation of the wives rather than anything
to do with Islam.
Post by Richard Miller
Hint: it is not entirely coincidental that there are also these
downsides to that society, as there were within Western families when
such societal norms were enforced by peer pressure.
Would you please give some examples? That would definitely
help me understand your point. My brain seems to be
hibernating today.

Max
Post by Richard Miller
--
Richard Miller
Neil Boss
2006-09-16 08:57:46 UTC
Permalink
Buit that family does not include non-Muslims. The Muslims are encouraged to
hate non-Muslims and oppress them. So why is the left supporting them?
Post by Richard Miller
No, actually the most amazing thing is why those who regard themselves
as on the right demonise a culture in which its traditional values of
respect for the family and mutual self-support is so heavily ingrained.
Hint: it is not entirely coincidental that there are also these
downsides to that society, as there were within Western families when
such societal norms were enforced by peer pressure.
--
Richard Miller
Richard Miller
2006-09-16 10:17:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Boss
Buit that family does not include non-Muslims. The Muslims are encouraged to
hate non-Muslims and oppress them. So why is the left supporting them?
Your premise is no more true than an assertion that Christians are
encouraged to hate non-Christians, which in turn can be divided up into
Catholic, Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists etc being encouraged to hate
each other. There are elements of rivalry and of disdain for people who
do not share the same beliefs across all of these religions and
divisions within religions, but they don't have much impact on society
usually.
--
Richard Miller
Max Muir
2006-09-17 06:02:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Miller
Post by Neil Boss
Buit that family does not include non-Muslims. The Muslims are encouraged to
hate non-Muslims and oppress them. So why is the left supporting them?
Your premise is no more true than an assertion that Christians are
encouraged to hate non-Christians, which in turn can be divided up into
Catholic, Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists etc being encouraged to hate
each other. There are elements of rivalry and of disdain for people who
do not share the same beliefs across all of these religions and
divisions within religions, but they don't have much impact on society
usually.
Hi Richard,
I hate to badger you, but I found these examples of
Muslims being encouraged to hate non-Muslims and I
was wondering if you could point to Ruth Kelly, or
any other British Christians encouraging hatred of
Muslims.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13804825/
"Saudi textbooks preach intolerance, hate"
Jews and Christians are "enemies" of Muslims.
Every religion other than Islam is "false."
"The hour [of Judgment] will not come until
the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them."
==
http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=2601
"This past Friday, on August 23, Yemen's
government-run television station broadcast
a prayer sermon delivered at the Grand Mosque
in Sanaa, Yemen's capital. Here is what
the preacher had to say, "O Allah,
destroy the Jews and their supporters
and the Christians and their supporters
and followers.
O Allah, destroy the ground under their
feet, instill fear in their hearts, and
freeze the blood in their veins."

This marked the third week in a row that
official Yemeni TV had broadcast a sermon
in which the preacher issued a chilling,
and decidedly unpleasant, call for the
destruction of both Jews and Christians."
==
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004882.php
"Muslims at hate website spread personal info,
photos of Christians who debate Muslims"
A radical Islamic Web site
systematically tracks Chris-
tians on PalTalk.com, an
Internet chat service on
which a New Jersey man
received a death threat
two months before he and
his family were murdered.
The password protected
Arabic Web site, at the
address www.barsomyat.com,
features pictures and infor-
mation about Christians
who have been particularly
active in debating Muslims
on PalTalk.
==
This loathing of Christians is rooted in the Koran, of course.

"Fight and slay the pagans (infidels)
wherever ye find them, and seize them,
beleaguer them, and lie in wait for
them in every stratagem of war."
Quran, Sura 9:5

"Prophet, make war on unbelievers and
hypocrites, and deal rigorously with
them."
Al Tawbah (The Repentence) Sura 9:73

"Let not the unbelievers think they
will ever get away. They have not the
power to do so. Muster against them
all the men and cavalry at your command,
so that you may strike terror into the
enemy of God and your enemy... Prophet,
(Muhammed) rouse the faithful to arms!
If they (the non-Muslims) incline to
peace (accept Islam) make peace with them."
Al Anfal (The Spoils) Sura 8:59

"If they reject your judgement, know
that it is Allah's wish to scourge
them for their sins."
Al Maidah (The Table) Sura 5:49

"Believers (Muslims), take neither Jews
nor Christians to be your friends: they
are friends with one another. Whoever
of you seeks their friendship shall
become one of their number, and God
does not guide (those Jewish and
Christian) wrong-doers."
Al Maidah (The Table) Sura 5:51-5:74
==
http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/cultuHre.htm
"Christians have been pursued, and massacred,
and their churches burned down by jihadists
in the Moluccas and other Indonesian islands.
The death toll in these violent attacks is
over 10,000, while an additional 8,000
Christians have been forcibly converted to
Islam, including many who were circumcised.
Atrocities are also being committed by
jihadists in both the Philippines, and
some northern Nigerian states. Hundreds
of innocent people died when jihad struck
at the Jewish Community Center of Buenos
Aires in Argentina, and the U.S. embassies
in Kenya and Tanzania. In Egypt, jihadists
have massacred Copts in their churches and
villages, and murdered European tourists.
Christians in Pakistan and in Iran live in
terror of accusations of blasphemy, which,
if "proven," can yield a death sentence.
And a cataclysmic act of jihad terror
resulted in the slaughter of nearly 3,000
innocent civilians of multiple faiths and
nationalities in New York, on September 11,
2001. None of these victims were guilty
of any crime. They were murdered and
mutilated out of hate."
==
http://www.cathnews.com/news/512/82.php
"On Tuesday, Cardinal George Pell asked
gangs of Middle Eastern descent not to
target Christmas celebrations, after
families were abused and gunshots fired
into cars at a primary school's carols
night in western Sydney on Monday."
==

In contrast, it seems as if British Christians
are bending over forwards for the Muslims.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1765210.stm
"Prime Minister Tony Blair has told a conference of Christians and
Muslims that there is a renewed urgency for greater religious
understanding in the wake of the 11 September terror attacks."
==
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/1567187.stm
'Speaking after talks with members of the Muslim Council of Britain, Mr
Blair said that Islam was a "tolerant, peaceful" religion.'
==
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_yorkshire/4453280.stm
"The Bishop of Sheffield will urge Muslims
and non-Muslims to unite when he addresses
the launch of the city's Islam awareness
week."
==
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2867483.stm
"Church leaders stand by Muslim community"
==
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2867589.stm
Richard Miller
2006-09-17 06:32:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Max Muir
Hi Richard,
I hate to badger you, but I found these examples of Muslims being
encouraged to hate non-Muslims and I was wondering if you could point
to Ruth Kelly, or any other British Christians encouraging hatred of
Muslims.
Why limit it to British? Is that so as to exclude me mentioning the
Pope's decidedly unfriendly attack on Islam this week?

And why limit it to preaching killing? Is that so that I cannot cite the
*actual* killing of innocent Muslims by British and American forces in
Iraq and Afghanistan?

And I don't know whether they are Christian or not, but these boards,
and indeed this thread, contain plenty of examples of British people
preaching hatred of Muslims as a class.
--
Richard Miller
milou
2006-09-17 09:47:58 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 07:32:43 +0100, Richard Miller
Post by Richard Miller
Why limit it to British? Is that so as to exclude me mentioning the
Pope's decidedly unfriendly attack on Islam this week?
And why limit it to preaching killing? Is that so that I cannot cite the
*actual* killing of innocent Muslims by British and American forces in
Iraq and Afghanistan?
And I don't know whether they are Christian or not, but these boards,
and indeed this thread, contain plenty of examples of British people
preaching hatred of Muslims as a class.
Someone posting in Usenet under his real name and giving his real
address and phone number in Google has to be incredibly stupid.
Like your stupid muzzy friends you haven't understood what the Pope
(no friend of mine) was saying.
Max Muir
2006-09-18 04:32:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Miller
Post by Max Muir
Hi Richard,
I hate to badger you, but I found these examples of Muslims being
encouraged to hate non-Muslims and I was wondering if you could point
to Ruth Kelly, or any other British Christians encouraging hatred of
Muslims.
Dear Richard,
thanks for finally taking notice of me!
Post by Richard Miller
Why limit it to British?
I feel that British Christians have gone out
of their way to assist Islam of all kinds in
the UK and therefore they form a weak point
in your argument.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1765210.stm
"Prime Minister Tony Blair has told a conference of Christians and
Muslims that there is a renewed urgency for greater religious
understanding in the wake of the 11 September terror attacks."
==
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/1567187.stm
'Speaking after talks with members of the Muslim Council of Britain, Mr

Blair said that Islam was a "tolerant, peaceful" religion.'
==
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_yorkshire/4453280.stm
"The Bishop of Sheffield will urge Muslims
and non-Muslims to unite when he addresses
the launch of the city's Islam awareness
week."
==
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2867483.stm
"Church leaders stand by Muslim community"
Post by Richard Miller
Is that so as to exclude me mentioning the
Pope's decidedly unfriendly attack on Islam this week?
No way! Let's talk about that.

Eel Parper seems to have been making a
gentle protest about forced conversion.

http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=763
"Outrage at the death of a Catholic boy
forced to convert to Islam at the hands
of torturous abductors has prompted the
Pakistan Catholic Bishop's Commission of
Justice and Peace, to take up the legal
case. The Christian youth died of injuries
inflicted by a teacher and students at
an Islamic school. The National Commission
for Justice and Peace declared May 4th
that the incident reflects a worrying
trend of forced conversions."
==
http://www.boloji.com/wfs/wfs161.htm
"Hindu minorities in Pakistan have been
subject to kidnapping, killing, extortion
and their shrines have often been desecrated.
But the forced conversions of their daughters
in recent years have badly shaken the community."
==
http://www.worthynews.com/news-features/indonesia-ethnic-cleansing-8.html
"A growing body of evidence confirms reports
that Christians in Indonesia's Maluku
Islands have been forced to convert to
Islam under threat of death, although
Muslim clerics deny the claims."
==
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005823.htm
"Forced conversions in Islamic history are
not exceptional-they have been the norm,
across three continents-Asia, Africa,
and Europe-for over 13 centuries."
==
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41805
"Muslim extremists have allegedly abducted a
Coptic priest's wife in Egypt and forced her
to convert to Islam"
==

Is it an attack on Islam to protest this behaviour?
That suggests resisting a criminal or a rapist is an
attack, surely.

While it is true Muslims generally punish the victim
in such an attack, but we aren't Muslims.

==
Religious child prostitution
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1840
"Last August, Atefeh Rajabi, a 16-year-old girl in this town, was
publicly hanged for what the religious judge called "acts
incompatible with chastity".
http://tinyurl.com/mukal
==

http://tinyurl.com/fxchr
"In Pakistan, Rape Victims Are the 'Criminals'
By SETH MYDANS

HORLAKI, Pakistan - The evidence of guilt was there for all to see: a
newborn baby in the arms of its mother, a village woman named Zafran
Bibi.

Her crime: she had been raped. Her sentence: death by stoning."
==

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=978132004
"Rape victim marries jailed attacker to avoid Muslim shun"

==
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/pakistan/forms.htm

"Forms of Violence Against Women in Pakistan

Domestic Violence and Rape

Studies on violence against women estimate that a woman in Pakistan is
raped every two hours; approximately 70-90 percent of women suffer
from some form of domestic violence; and there were at least 3,296
cases of violence against women in 2002. The Human Rights Commission
of Pakistan (HRCP) documented 895 cases of abuse against women for the
first part of 2003, consisting of 260 murders and 124 cases of gang
rape. Barriers such as social stigma, legislation that punishes
victims, economic dependency, and lack of access to information about
their rights prevent women and girls from reporting domestic violence
and rape. Nearly 50 percent of women who do report rape are jailed
under the Hudood Ordinances, which criminalizes extramarital sexual
relations, including rape. The Hudood Ordinances, implemented in 1979,
abolished recognition and punishment for marital rape. Pakistan has no
specific legislation against domestic violence and police are
reluctant to get involved in "family matters."
==
Post by Richard Miller
And why limit it to preaching killing?
Indeed! Sometimes I get bogged down within
the confines of the thread subject. The
preaching of hate in Saudi schools does not
occur in a vacuum does it? Do you think it
comes from Saudi anger about the occupation
of Iraq and Afghanistan?
Post by Richard Miller
Is that so that I cannot cite the
*actual* killing of innocent Muslims
by British and American forces in
Iraq and Afghanistan?
This is not Saudi Arabia, you are free to quote
our collateral damage figures without let or
hindrance. But it seems to me that British
soldiers were encouraged to show great respect
for the Iraqis...

http://journal.dajobe.org/journal/2003/03/collins/
"Iraq is steeped in history.
It is the site of the Garden of Eden,
of the Great Flood and the birth-
place of Abraham.
Tread lightly there."

These biblical refs suggest strongly that
Collins is a Christian.

In contrast, Jehadis have bombed Chaldean churches
in Iraq.
Post by Richard Miller
And I don't know whether they are Christian or not, but these boards,
and indeed this thread, contain plenty of examples of British people
preaching hatred of Muslims as a class.
Yes, they do. I wonder if we now detest them as much as
they detest us?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1804078,00.html

"The poll found that 63% of all Britons
had a favourable opinion of Muslims,
down slightly from 67% in 2004,
suggesting last year's London bombings
did not trigger a significant rise in prejudice.
Attitudes in Britain were more positive than
in the US, Germany and Spain (where the
popularity of Muslims has plummeted to
29%), and about the same as in France.
Less than a third of British non-Muslims
said they viewed Muslims as violent,
significantly fewer than non-Muslims in
Spain (60%), Germany (52%), the US (45%)
and France (41%)."

"By contrast, the poll found that British
Muslims represented a "notable exception"
in Europe, with far more negative views of
westerners than Islamic minorities else-
where on the continent. A significant
majority viewed western populations as
selfish, arrogant, greedy and immoral.
Just over half said westerners were violent.
While the overwhelming majority of European
Muslims said westerners were respectful of
women, fewer than half British Muslims
agreed. Another startling result found that
only 32% of Muslims in Britain had a
favourable opinion of Jews, compared with
71% of French Muslims."

"Across the board, Muslim attitudes in
Britain more resembled public opinion in
Islamic countries in the Middle East and
Asia than elsewhere in Europe."

==

This shows British multiculturism has been
a resounding success, importing Muslim
attitudes from the Middle East and Asia
intact.
Post by Richard Miller
--
Richard Miller
Max Muir
Richard Miller
2006-09-18 21:30:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Max Muir
Post by Richard Miller
Post by Max Muir
Hi Richard,
I hate to badger you, but I found these examples of Muslims being
encouraged to hate non-Muslims and I was wondering if you could point
to Ruth Kelly, or any other British Christians encouraging hatred of
Muslims.
Dear Richard,
thanks for finally taking notice of me!
Post by Richard Miller
Why limit it to British?
I feel that British Christians have gone out
of their way to assist Islam of all kinds in
the UK and therefore they form a weak point
in your argument.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1765210.stm
"Prime Minister Tony Blair has told a conference of Christians and
Muslims that there is a renewed urgency for greater religious
understanding in the wake of the 11 September terror attacks."
==
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/1567187.stm
'Speaking after talks with members of the Muslim Council of Britain, Mr
Blair said that Islam was a "tolerant, peaceful" religion.'
When set alongside his actions of killing many innocent Muslims, and his
omission to condemn Israel's similar killing spree, these mere words
carry little weight.
Post by Max Muir
==
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_yorkshire/4453280.stm
"The Bishop of Sheffield will urge Muslims
and non-Muslims to unite when he addresses
the launch of the city's Islam awareness
week."
==
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2867483.stm
"Church leaders stand by Muslim community"
And? Equally there are Muslim religious leaders who preach solidarity
with other religions. It isn't fashionable to write about them in the
press though, so you don't tend to hear about them. The World Faith
Development Dialogue is a good example of such mutual respect.

http://www.wfdd.org.uk/
Post by Max Muir
Post by Richard Miller
Is that so as to exclude me mentioning the
Pope's decidedly unfriendly attack on Islam this week?
No way! Let's talk about that.
Eel Parper seems to have been making a
gentle protest about forced conversion.
http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=763
"Outrage at the death of a Catholic boy
forced to convert to Islam at the hands
of torturous abductors has prompted the
Pakistan Catholic Bishop's Commission of
Justice and Peace, to take up the legal
case. The Christian youth died of injuries
inflicted by a teacher and students at
an Islamic school. The National Commission
for Justice and Peace declared May 4th
that the incident reflects a worrying
trend of forced conversions."
==
http://www.boloji.com/wfs/wfs161.htm
"Hindu minorities in Pakistan have been
subject to kidnapping, killing, extortion
and their shrines have often been desecrated.
But the forced conversions of their daughters
in recent years have badly shaken the community."
==
http://www.worthynews.com/news-features/indonesia-ethnic-cleansing-8.html
"A growing body of evidence confirms reports
that Christians in Indonesia's Maluku
Islands have been forced to convert to
Islam under threat of death, although
Muslim clerics deny the claims."
==
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005823.htm
"Forced conversions in Islamic history are
not exceptional-they have been the norm,
across three continents-Asia, Africa,
and Europe-for over 13 centuries."
==
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41805
"Muslim extremists have allegedly abducted a
Coptic priest's wife in Egypt and forced her
to convert to Islam"
==
Is it an attack on Islam to protest this behaviour?
Citing a 14th Century bishop, and then denying that you are associating
yourself with his views is plain stupid. Either the Pope does think
Islam is evil, or he had no business quoting this guy. But the fact that
*some* people in a few places allegedly enforce conversion in this way
does not make the entire religion evil, any more than Abu Ghraib and
Guantanamo make the entire secular world evil. So I have no problem with
the Pope attacking the alleged abuses you cite, but that is not what he
did.
Post by Max Muir
That suggests resisting a criminal or a rapist is an
attack, surely.
It suggests no such thing.

I am snipping the rest of your comments. All they show is that some
third world countries have standards of society that we in the West
would consider barbaric. But then, I consider America's use of the death
penalty and failure to provide basic health care for all barbaric as
well. Once more, it has nothing directly to do with Islam, and
everything to do with how those particular societies choose to organise
themselves.
--
Richard Miller
Max Muir
2006-09-19 04:19:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Miller
Post by Max Muir
Post by Richard Miller
Post by Max Muir
Hi Richard,
I hate to badger you, but I found these examples of Muslims being
encouraged to hate non-Muslims and I was wondering if you could point
to Ruth Kelly, or any other British Christians encouraging hatred of
Muslims.
Dear Richard,
thanks for finally taking notice of me!
Post by Richard Miller
Why limit it to British?
I feel that British Christians have gone out
of their way to assist Islam of all kinds in
the UK and therefore they form a weak point
in your argument.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1765210.stm
"Prime Minister Tony Blair has told a conference of Christians and
Muslims that there is a renewed urgency for greater religious
understanding in the wake of the 11 September terror attacks."
==
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/1567187.stm
'Speaking after talks with members of the Muslim Council of Britain, Mr
Blair said that Islam was a "tolerant, peaceful" religion.'
Hi Richard!
Post by Richard Miller
When set alongside his actions of killing many innocent Muslims, and his
What actions do you mean? It seems to me
that religious Muslims, not Blair, are killing many
innocent less-religious Muslims.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5355478.stm

"Local police said a patrol of Canadian soldiers
were outside a school on foot, handing out pens
and other items to children when a suicide bomber
on a bicycle rode into the crowd.

The explosives were in a crate on the back of
his bike, an official said.

"Kids were running towards the Canadian convoy
because they were giving out pens and notebooks
to the children," Mohammed Karim told the AFP news agency.

"A man riding on a bicycle approached the
crowd and detonated in the crowd.

"With the explosion, all the shouting of kids
was ended and you could hear cries and people
running to all sides. Some of the wounded
were also running."

The Taleban said it carried out the attack.
A spokesman, Qari Mohammad Yousuf, said the
bomber was a young Afghan from Kandahar and
promised more attacks.
==
Post by Richard Miller
omission to condemn Israel 's similar killing spree, these mere words
I remember retaliation against many Hezbollah rockets
launched into civilian areas but no 'killing
spree'.
Post by Richard Miller
carry little weight.
It's not Blair's job to tell Israel what to do.

Look what a mess he's made of the UK!
Post by Richard Miller
Post by Max Muir
==
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_yorkshire/4453280.stm
"The Bishop of Sheffield will urge Muslims
and non-Muslims to unite when he addresses
the launch of the city's Islam awareness
week."
==
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2867483.stm
"Church leaders stand by Muslim community"
And? Equally there are Muslim religious leaders who preach solidarity
with other religions.
It is Christians who stand accused. It hardly
defends them to mention another group entirely
does it?
Post by Richard Miller
It isn't fashionable to write about them in the
press though, so you don't tend to hear about them. The World Faith
Development Dialogue is a good example of such mutual respect.
http://www.wfdd.org.uk/
I disgree. It seems to me Muslims get a great
deal of air time. Last night some chap called
'Dr. Matoot' or 'Dr Haroof' was being feted as the
kind of moderate Muslim the US should be talking
to, even though he was shown ranting about DEATH
WITH ISRAEL (or something similar) during the
Intifada.
Post by Richard Miller
Post by Max Muir
Post by Richard Miller
Is that so as to exclude me mentioning the
Pope's decidedly unfriendly attack on Islam this week?
No way! Let's talk about that.
Eel Parper seems to have been making a
gentle protest about forced conversion.
http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=763
"Outrage at the death of a Catholic boy
forced to convert to Islam at the hands
of torturous abductors has prompted the
Pakistan Catholic Bishop's Commission of
Justice and Peace, to take up the legal
case. The Christian youth died of injuries
inflicted by a teacher and students at
an Islamic school. The National Commission
for Justice and Peace declared May 4th
that the incident reflects a worrying
trend of forced conversions."
==
http://www.boloji.com/wfs/wfs161.htm
"Hindu minorities in Pakistan have been
subject to kidnapping, killing, extortion
and their shrines have often been desecrated.
But the forced conversions of their daughters
in recent years have badly shaken the community."
==
http://www.worthynews.com/news-features/indonesia-ethnic-cleansing-8.html
"A growing body of evidence confirms reports
that Christians in Indonesia 's Maluku
Islands have been forced to convert to
Islam under threat of death, although
Muslim clerics deny the claims."
==
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005823.htm
"Forced conversions in Islamic history are
not exceptional-they have been the norm,
across three continents-Asia, Africa ,
and Europe -for over 13 centuries."
==
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41805
"Muslim extremists have allegedly abducted a
Coptic priest's wife in Egypt and forced her
to convert to Islam"
==
Is it an attack on Islam to protest this behaviour?
Citing a 14th Century bishop, and then denying that you are associating
yourself with his views is plain stupid.
Association is not necessarily approbation.

"As for the opinion of the Byzantine emperor
Manuel II Paleologus, which he quoted during
his Regensburg talk, the Holy Father did not
mean, nor does he mean, to make that opinion
his own in any way."
Post by Richard Miller
Either the Pope does think
Islam is evil, or he had no business quoting this guy.
That sounds a bit Bushite; a bit absolute, surely.
Post by Richard Miller
But the fact that
*some* people
They are people, of course, but people acting explicitly and
deliberately in their role as Muslims and doing things which
compel my condemnation.
Post by Richard Miller
in a few places allegedly enforce conversion in this way
does not make the entire religion evil,
Do any Muslims repudiate forced conversion?
Post by Richard Miller
any more than Abu Ghraib and
Guantanamo make the entire secular world evil.
If Muslims forcibly converting others to Islam using
abduction and threats does not reflect badly on Islam
what does?
Post by Richard Miller
So I have no problem with
the Pope attacking the alleged abuses
you cite, but that is not what he
did.
I'm not a theologian, and evidently you see something that
I have missed. If the following is not the crux of Muslim
anger, what is?

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new,
and there you will find things only evil and inhuman,
such as his command to spread by the sword the faith
he preached." -Manuel II Paleologus

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005823.htm
"Forced conversions in Islamic history are
not exceptional-they have been the norm,
across three continents-Asia, Africa ,
and Europe -for over 13 centuries."
Post by Richard Miller
Post by Max Muir
That suggests resisting a criminal or a rapist is an
attack, surely.
It suggests no such thing.
Well, we can disagree and remain civil, I hope.
Post by Richard Miller
I am snipping the rest of your comments.
All they show is that some
third world countries have standards of society that we in the West
would consider barbaric.
Some Muslim countries, Richard. They are not subhuman
and their plight is the effect of the retrograde effect
of Islam.

http://india_resource.tripod.com/ifpakistan.html
"Pakistan's Penal Code allows for the death
penalty for directly or indirectly defiling
"the sacred name of the holy Prophet Mohammed."
It also stipulates a 10-year sentence for
insulting the religion of any class of
citizens, and provides for a sentence of life
imprisonment for "whoever willfully defiles,
damages, or desecrates a copy of the holy Koran."

"Often such laws have been invoked in what
might normally be perceived as routine and
innocuous conversations between neighbors
or acquaintances. In November of 1992, Gul
Masih, a Christian, was sentenced to death
after having remarked innocently about
Mohammed's marriages. His neighbor
Mohammad Sajjad, a Muslim, had made a comment
stating that the Virgin Mary must have been
a prostitute. Masih, in turn, replied he had
read "that Mohammed had 11 wives, including
a minor." Sajjad decided to file charges
against Gul Masih who was then sentenced to
death."

It seems plain they are in the grip of an
Islamic Disenlightenment.
Post by Richard Miller
But then, I consider America 's use of the death
penalty and failure to provide basic health care for all barbaric as
well.
http://tinyurl.com/e56s2
"Helping to bring health to Afghans"
==
http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/nov2004/a110104a.html
"Coalition Conducts Medical Assistance in Afghanistan"
==
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/05/20030519-4.html
"Afghanistan has improved its health care
system and with a U.S commitment of $133
million planned for a three-year program,
access to health services will be expanded.
Successes since April 2002 include:

* Reopening Rabia Balkhi Women's Hospital
in Kabul, Afghanistan, after a six-month
renovation project supported by the U.S.
* Departments of Health and Human Services
(HHS) and Defense Vaccination of 4.3
million children against measles and
treated 700,000 cases of malaria
* Revitalization of the polio eradication
programs surveillance system
* Revising the national curriculum for
midwives
* Completing the rebuilding of 72 hospitals,
clinics and womens healthcare centers
* Planning to build or rehabilitate 550
heath care centers
==
http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/rpt/60857.htm
i. Built/repaired water treatment plants for
2.7 million Iraqis and sewerage for 4.9 million.
ii. Nationwide polio and measles vaccinations
improved children's health.
==
"Operation Restore Hope
Post by Richard Miller
From December 1992 to March 1995, three
hospitals, the 86th Evacuation Hospital,
the 42nd Mobile Army Surgical Hospital,
and 46th Combat Support Hospital, provided
humanitarian relief in Somalia. The 62nd
Medical Group also deployed."
Loading Image...
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Post by Richard Miller
Once more, it has nothing directly to do with Islam, and
everything to do with how those particular societies choose to organise
themselves.
But we are talking about Islamic nations where
religion permeates all levels of society.

Targeted killings of health professionals
Pakistan
Key words extrajudicial execution / doctors / nurses

Summary

In mid-March 2002 when an Amnesty Inter-
national delegation reached Karachi, the
largest city in Pakistan, three doctors
from the Shi'a minority community(1) had
been shot dead, three had survived
attempts on their lives and seven had
reportedly migrated within the previous
week.

The targeting of doctors from the small
Shi'a minority community on the grounds
of religion or cultural identity is not
a new phenomenon in Pakistan. However,
since Pakistan declared its support for
the US-led coalition against 'terrorism',
there has been a further in systematic
killings of members of the Shi'a community
(including doctors), Christians and
Westerners unconnected with sectarian
strife. The perpetrators of these
killings are believed to be Islamists(2)."
==
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=10275
"An outbreak of polio has hit children
in the Nigerian state of Kano. Kano
is one of the muslim states that had
boycotted the use of the polio vaccine.
Many muslim states in Nigeria banned
the polio vaccine because those in
charge said the Americans were using
the vaccines to make their population
infertile. Many of them said the vaccine
would also be used to spread AIDS in
the region. Despite appeals from
neighbouring countries to vaccinate its
population, the conspiracy theorists in
Nigeria got their way."

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=106&sid=911535
"Allah used Muslim scientists to expose
the Western plot of using polio vaccines
to reduce our population," said the 28-
year-old Muslim food vendor in this
northern Nigerian town. Each time health
teams have tried to vaccinate her
daughter, Garba has refused."
Post by Richard Miller
--
Richard Miller
Our wonderful NHS killed my mother a few weeks
ago, so please don't wave them under my nose.
They tried to remove a polyp by what sounds
like a frankly barbaric process and pulled out
a piece of her gut. The operation to repair
this tear was also a failure and she died in
agony a few week later, after choking on her
own vomit. The surgeon assured me that
everything was done according to the latest
thinking and procedures in British medicine.
Yet the coroner's report clearly blames
the hospital. So I hope you will understand
if I do not share your pride in the NHS
or your condemnation of USAn medicine.
Max Muir

PS. I remind you that most Muslim countries
have the death penalty, and usually in a
gruesome form. Why is it uniquely horrible
when the Americans do it?

http://www.fluxfactory.org/otr/kennedyopensecrets.htm
"In the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, homosexuality
is not only illegal, it is a crime punishable by
whipping, imprisonment, or even death."
==
http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/overview.html
http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/saudi/briefing/8.html
"Saudi Arabia has one of the highest rates
of executions in the world in both absolute
numbers and per capita. The death penalty
applies to a wide range of non-violent
activities such as apostasy and "witchcraft",
"sexual offences", acts deemed to amount to
"corruption on earth", and crimes such as
drug dealing.
==
Cynic
2006-09-17 10:21:24 UTC
Permalink
On 16 Sep 2006 23:02:22 -0700, "Max Muir"
Post by Max Muir
Post by Richard Miller
Your premise is no more true than an assertion that Christians are
encouraged to hate non-Christians, which in turn can be divided up into
Catholic, Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists etc being encouraged to hate
each other. There are elements of rivalry and of disdain for people who
do not share the same beliefs across all of these religions and
divisions within religions, but they don't have much impact on society
usually.
Hi Richard,
I hate to badger you, but I found these examples of
Muslims being encouraged to hate non-Muslims and I
was wondering if you could point to Ruth Kelly, or
any other British Christians encouraging hatred of
Muslims.
Well you and quite a few other posters are encouraging hatred of
Muslims, so yes, there are many examples of that.
--
Cynic
Clough
2006-09-17 10:33:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cynic
Well you and quite a few other posters are encouraging hatred of
Muslims, so yes, there are many examples of that.
Is being critical of Islam encouraging hatred of Muslims?

Is Islam so protected that no critical word must be uttered against it
lest we be 'Muslim haters'?

Are there other religions and ideologies that fall into the protected
category?

Scientology, perhaps. Or the Moonies. What about Aum Shinrikyo?

Are we allowed to be critical of those without being considered haters
of something or other?

Clough
Cynic
2006-09-17 10:58:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clough
Post by Cynic
Well you and quite a few other posters are encouraging hatred of
Muslims, so yes, there are many examples of that.
Is being critical of Islam encouraging hatred of Muslims?
No more that being critical of Western values is encouraging hatred.
Post by Clough
Is Islam so protected that no critical word must be uttered against it
lest we be 'Muslim haters'?
Are Wetern values so protected that no Muslim dare utter a word
against it without being arrested for inciting terrorism?
Post by Clough
Are there other religions and ideologies that fall into the protected
category?
Almost all, in the eyes of their believers.
Post by Clough
Are we allowed to be critical of those without being considered haters
of something or other?
Many people are going a lot further than merely criticising Moslems,
as you well know.
--
Cynic
Clough
2006-09-17 11:17:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cynic
Post by Clough
Post by Cynic
Well you and quite a few other posters are encouraging hatred of
Muslims, so yes, there are many examples of that.
Is being critical of Islam encouraging hatred of Muslims?
No more that being critical of Western values is encouraging hatred.
Post by Clough
Is Islam so protected that no critical word must be uttered against it
lest we be 'Muslim haters'?
Are Wetern values so protected that no Muslim dare utter a word
against it without being arrested for inciting terrorism?
There is a difference between criticism, and even ridicule, of a
belief and incitement to violence and murder.
Post by Cynic
Post by Clough
Are there other religions and ideologies that fall into the protected
category?
Almost all, in the eyes of their believers.
They'll just have to put up with all the criticism and ridicule they
get. Or piss off somewhere more to their liking.

No religion, ideology or belief system is or should be beyond
criticism, satirising and even ridicule.
Post by Cynic
Post by Clough
Are we allowed to be critical of those without being considered haters
of something or other?
Many people are going a lot further than merely criticising Moslems,
as you well know.
Calling for violence against Moslems, or anybody else, is rightfully a
criminal offense. Xenophobes and Nazis who do that should be
prosecuted. And jailed if found guilty.

Criticising is another matter. Moslems, and anyone else who identifies
with a belief or ideology, is fair game for criticism. Although the
only critical thing that could be said about a Moslem is that he is a
thick and gullible twat for believing the crap that he does.

As for Islam, Muhammed and the Koran, they are valid targets for all
the fun, ridicule, satire and criticism that is hurled at them.

Just as any religious cult or belief system is.

Clough
Cynic
2006-09-17 12:20:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clough
Criticising is another matter. Moslems, and anyone else who identifies
with a belief or ideology, is fair game for criticism. Although the
only critical thing that could be said about a Moslem is that he is a
thick and gullible twat for believing the crap that he does.
As for Islam, Muhammed and the Koran, they are valid targets for all
the fun, ridicule, satire and criticism that is hurled at them.
Just as any religious cult or belief system is.
IYO maybe. Would you also feel it perfectly acceptable to walk up to
young children and ridicule their belief in Father Christmas? If
their parents get upset, would you castigate them for reacting in that
way?

And of course your attitude works both ways. If it is acceptable for
you to ridicule and satarise the behaviour and beliefs of others, then
you should find it perfectly acceptable for those you target to
ridicule and mock *your* value systems.

Whilst I do not believe that *any* comment about *anything* should be
against the law in general, I *do* believe that decent people steer
clear of saying things that they think will cause significant real
offence (as opposed to mock outrage) if it is avoidable. I also
believe that laws against behaviour that has a significant risk of
inciting *immediate* violence or other harmful behaviour can
legitimately be outlawed. I have had many debates with deeply
religious people in which I have made it clear that I think their
belief is irrational and illogical, but have managed to get my opinion
across without causing any offence. And they theirs.

And in the case of people with a sincere religious belief, you may be
able to score cheap points with people who do not hold that belief by
using offensive satire, but if your aim is to change the minds of the
religious people, non-offensive comment is far more effective.

I doubt that you can do anything about uneducated people in an
underdeveloped country, but there is no reason why Moslems in the UK
should, on average, be any more fervant about their religion than
Christians in the UK today. But if you go out of your way to offend,
then you will engender hate that will use religion as a "hook". And
there will alsways be people who use religion as a means to
rationalise the use of violence to themselves. Two glaring examples
of such people are Bush and Blair.

Blaming religion for terrorist attacks and anti-West feelings is like
blaming violent behaviour on knives or guns.
--
Cynic
milou
2006-09-17 12:25:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cynic
IYO maybe. Would you also feel it perfectly acceptable to walk up to
young children and ridicule their belief in Father Christmas? If
their parents get upset, would you castigate them for reacting in that
way?
Ridicule?

Religion of peace and tolerance:
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/09/pope-threatened-churches-torched-riots.html
habshi
2006-09-17 00:55:10 UTC
Permalink
Muslims are always blasting idol worshippers and others and
its time idol worshippers retaliated
Clough
2006-09-17 18:21:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cynic
IYO maybe. Would you also feel it perfectly acceptable to walk up to
young children and ridicule their belief in Father Christmas? If
their parents get upset, would you castigate them for reacting in that
way?
That's a rather condescending attitude towards Muslims.

I'm prepared to treat them, and everyone else, as full and equal
adults.
Post by Cynic
And of course your attitude works both ways. If it is acceptable for
you to ridicule and satarise the behaviour and beliefs of others, then
you should find it perfectly acceptable for those you target to
ridicule and mock *your* value systems.
Yes, of course.

Since I was a long haired hippie in the sixties I've been used to
people, and large parts of the mainstream media, pouring scorn and
ridicule on me, my lifestyle and my beliefs.

I like to smoke cannabis occasionally and firmly believe in
legalisation. Have you any idea how large parts of the mainstream
media treat druggies?. We druggies must be the last group of people
left who can still be legally treated as Julius Streicher treated the
Jews.

But I still believe in free speech and the right to criticise and even
ridicule.
Post by Cynic
Whilst I do not believe that *any* comment about *anything* should be
against the law in general, I *do* believe that decent people steer
clear of saying things that they think will cause significant real
offence (as opposed to mock outrage) if it is avoidable. I also
believe that laws against behaviour that has a significant risk of
inciting *immediate* violence or other harmful behaviour can
legitimately be outlawed. I have had many debates with deeply
religious people in which I have made it clear that I think their
belief is irrational and illogical, but have managed to get my opinion
across without causing any offence. And they theirs.
I would not personally mock any Muslim, Scientologist, Moonie,
Jehovahs Witness or even Daily Mail reader who I met on a social
level.

But the public arena of debate and ideas is different. I feel free to
use language to mock, satirise and ridicule, just as they are free to
do the same.
Post by Cynic
And in the case of people with a sincere religious belief, you may be
able to score cheap points with people who do not hold that belief by
using offensive satire, but if your aim is to change the minds of the
religious people, non-offensive comment is far more effective.
Formal and personal face to face debate is another thing altogether.
I'm quite prepared to enter into serious, respectful debate with
anyone, even a Daily Mail reader. But I doubt that it would last long.
Post by Cynic
I doubt that you can do anything about uneducated people in an
underdeveloped country, but there is no reason why Moslems in the UK
should, on average, be any more fervant about their religion than
Christians in the UK today. But if you go out of your way to offend,
then you will engender hate that will use religion as a "hook". And
there will alsways be people who use religion as a means to
rationalise the use of violence to themselves. Two glaring examples
of such people are Bush and Blair.
Bush and Blair are, vile perverted, mass murdering monsters. I see no
need to go out of my way to be respectful and deferential towards
them. I would like to see them both arrested, tried and if found
guilty, executed for war crimes.
Post by Cynic
Blaming religion for terrorist attacks and anti-West feelings is like
blaming violent behaviour on knives or guns.
My objections towards Islam go much further than the terrorist
activities of a tiny percent of particularly insane fanatics.

The actions of people often have roots in their belief system.

I would be worried if any nutty religious cult grew in such numbers
that they could wield influence in society, it makes no difference
wether that nutty cult is Islam, Scientology or Opus Dei.

As one poster pointed out, we already have large numbers of Daily Mail
readers influencing public discourse and politics. It is enough with
that bunch of blethering, drooling, half witted lunatics without
encouraging more.

Clough
milou
2006-09-17 11:56:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cynic
Are Wetern values so protected that no Muslim dare utter a word
against it without being arrested for inciting terrorism?
You mean these lovely people and these lovely children?
http://www.youtube.com/v/-HlaVpqUXF0
Cynic
2006-09-17 12:47:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by milou
Post by Cynic
Are Wetern values so protected that no Muslim dare utter a word
against it without being arrested for inciting terrorism?
You mean these lovely people and these lovely children?
http://www.youtube.com/v/-HlaVpqUXF0
I've heard similar from all sorts of groups. Christianity teaches
that it is acceptable to die for your religion - and indeed many
people have.
--
Cynic
Max Muir
2006-09-18 06:01:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cynic
Post by Clough
Post by Cynic
Well you and quite a few other posters are encouraging hatred of
Muslims, so yes, there are many examples of that.
Is being critical of Islam encouraging hatred of Muslims?
No more that being critical of Western values is encouraging hatred.
Post by Clough
Is Islam so protected that no critical word must be uttered against it
lest we be 'Muslim haters'?
Are Western values so protected that no Muslim dare utter a word
against it without being arrested for inciting terrorism?
Well DanDan isn't going to be arrested is he?

http://tinyurl.com/kfonl
Post by Cynic
Post by Clough
Are there other religions and ideologies that fall into the protected
category?
Almost all, in the eyes of their believers.
British Christians declined the protection of the Laws
mooted to prevent criticism of Islam in the UK.
Post by Cynic
Post by Clough
Are we allowed to be critical of those without being considered haters
of something or other?
Many people are going a lot further than merely criticising Moslems,
as you well know.
--
Cynic
You mean like this?

Payment will be made to: http://www.jihadwatch.org/
In the amount of: US $25.00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Billing Information:
Max Muir

To be paid by Credit Card
Type: XXXXXXXXX
Number: **** **** *********
Exp. Date: XXX XX XXXX
Max Muir
2006-09-18 01:41:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cynic
On 16 Sep 2006 23:02:22 -0700, "Max Muir"
Post by Max Muir
Post by Richard Miller
Your premise is no more true than an assertion that Christians are
encouraged to hate non-Christians, which in turn can be divided up into
Catholic, Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists etc being encouraged to hate
each other. There are elements of rivalry and of disdain for people who
do not share the same beliefs across all of these religions and
divisions within religions, but they don't have much impact on society
usually.
Hi Richard,
I hate to badger you, but I found these examples of
Muslims being encouraged to hate non-Muslims and I
was wondering if you could point to Ruth Kelly, or
any other British Christians encouraging hatred of
Muslims.
Well you and quite a few other posters are encouraging hatred of
Muslims,
If I report the way Muslims are encouraged to hate Christians
I'm encouraging hatred of Muslims?
Post by Cynic
so yes, there are many examples of that.
I'm not a Christian.

What about Hindu extremism? Should I keep quiet about that too
in case someone develops a negative opinion of bride burning, child
slavery, and the rehabilitation of Hitler in Gujarat?

http://tinyurl.com/rhsdz

I suppose when I report anti-British hatred of Hindu Nationalists
I'm encouraging the hatred of Hindu Nationalists?

http://tinyurl.com/rmdsd
Post by Cynic
--
Cynic
Somebody's got to speak out against these horrors.
Clough
2006-09-17 06:18:41 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 11:17:14 +0100, Richard Miller
Post by Richard Miller
Post by Neil Boss
Buit that family does not include non-Muslims. The Muslims are encouraged to
hate non-Muslims and oppress them. So why is the left supporting them?
Your premise is no more true than an assertion that Christians are
encouraged to hate non-Christians, which in turn can be divided up into
Catholic, Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists etc being encouraged to hate
each other. There are elements of rivalry and of disdain for people who
do not share the same beliefs across all of these religions and
divisions within religions, but they don't have much impact on society
usually.
I do not think what you say is true. Christianity in Europe has had
the fire and brimstone knocked out of it and, importantly, most
Europeans are secular and tolerant anyway.

The biggest lunatic religious cult in Europe today with strong
elements of the fundamentalism and exclusive intolerance you speak of
is Islam.

Clough
Neil Boss
2006-09-16 08:56:14 UTC
Permalink
And you are a classic example of that liberal left!
Post by Max Muir
And the British liberal-left who have fostered it and defend it,
overtly and otherwise.
JVB
2006-09-16 13:03:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Boss
And you are a classic example of that liberal left!
Post by Max Muir
And the British liberal-left who have fostered it and defend it,
overtly and otherwise.
Try reading Force of Reason (oriana fallaci) died yesterday, she never
minced her words, or pride and rage. She was very experienced, travelling to
some hotspots worldwide.
She was def not religous, as an atheist she appreciated her catholic
upbring, but decided for her own reasons to not believe in worship.
Anyone who criticises Islam is immediately attacked by the masses of
indoctrinated simpletons, every time they whine about their rights and
sensitivities I have to laugh, look at the protesters carrying placards
demanding decapitation of those who "Insult islam", their solutions to
imagined islamaphobia what disgust Jack Ketch

JVB
Neil Boss
2006-09-16 23:07:25 UTC
Permalink
Ohhh. Well how can one argue against that!

In protest I have to say that Mohammad is a son of a pig.
Post by JVB
Try reading Force of Reason (oriana fallaci) died yesterday, she never
minced her words, or pride and rage. She was very experienced, travelling to
some hotspots worldwide.
She was def not religous, as an atheist she appreciated her catholic
upbring, but decided for her own reasons to not believe in worship.
Anyone who criticises Islam is immediately attacked by the masses of
indoctrinated simpletons, every time they whine about their rights and
sensitivities I have to laugh, look at the protesters carrying placards
demanding decapitation of those who "Insult islam", their solutions to
imagined islamaphobia what disgust Jack Ketch
JVB
*elle*
2006-08-31 17:53:17 UTC
Permalink
habshi, please provide the link that supports the title to this thread!
Post by habshi
For preaching social isolation -women in stupid hijabs and
terrorism ie the verses in the Quran like 9.5 kill the unbelievers ,
8.39 wage war till Islam rules the world
4.34 flog any woman who dares speak up .
The problem is not the schools , its the mosques
anthonyberet
2006-09-01 07:24:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by habshi
For preaching social isolation -women in stupid hijabs and
terrorism ie the verses in the Quran like 9.5 kill the unbelievers ,
8.39 wage war till Islam rules the world
4.34 flog any woman who dares speak up .
The problem is not the schools , its the mosques
The problem isn't the schools - yet.
Personally I think the religious segregation of schools is an absolutely
bonkers idea - The use of public money to promote any religion should be
a serious criminal offense.
Mabon Dane
2006-09-16 10:12:08 UTC
Permalink
Ruth Kelly just shows her intolerance of muslims like the rest of the
Labour party.

Another issue is that Ruth Kelly is connected to Catholic conservative
movement Opus Dei.

The Pope has already attacked muslims and it looks like the catholic
church is moving towards a more combative style against islam, which
Ruth Kelly may be following.
milou
2006-09-16 10:44:11 UTC
Permalink
On 16 Sep 2006 03:12:08 -0700,
"Mabon Dane"
which is another alias of the raghead piece of shit DanDan posting
from pipex.com
Post by Mabon Dane
Ruth Kelly just shows her intolerance of muslims
about time someone did, hey raghead?
Neil Boss
2006-09-16 23:05:19 UTC
Permalink
Is it not intolerant of Muslims to expect others to give up their way of
life and to force them to bend the rules to accomodate their views? When has
say Saudi Arabia allowed non-Muslims to build temples, churches, etc. in
that country and to preach? Can't have it all one way.

Muslims do not yeild but take all the time and it is about time a stance was
taken.
Post by Mabon Dane
Ruth Kelly just shows her intolerance of muslims like the rest of the
Labour party.
Another issue is that Ruth Kelly is connected to Catholic conservative
movement Opus Dei.
The Pope has already attacked muslims and it looks like the catholic
church is moving towards a more combative style against islam, which
Ruth Kelly may be following.
Cynic
2006-09-16 23:34:45 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 09:05:19 +1000, "Neil Boss"
Post by Neil Boss
Is it not intolerant of Muslims to expect others to give up their way of
life and to force them to bend the rules to accomodate their views? When has
say Saudi Arabia allowed non-Muslims to build temples, churches, etc. in
that country and to preach? Can't have it all one way.
Muslims do not yeild but take all the time and it is about time a stance was
taken.
IIUC there are bars selling alcohol in Saudi Arabia that their own
citizens are not permitted to use. They are permitted only for the
benefit of foreigners.

If the UK government did a similar thing in the UK, I expect it would
cause a huge amount of outrage.
--
Cynic
Hoss Spence
2006-09-17 03:34:12 UTC
Permalink
So tell me why is Islam at war with: Christianity (US,Europe, Egypt
coptics, Africa, Indonesia), Hinduism (Kashmir), Judaism(all over),
Budhism (Taliban (statues), Thailand), Animists(Africa), Athiests
(Chechnia)

Lets face it... they're haters.
I can't think of any other religion quite like them. They're not even
trying to convert anybody... they just seem to want to kill in the name
of a make believe god.

I also don't' understand the apologist leftists in Europe and the US.
Say what you want
about our Evangelicals... they're not attacking anyone or inciting
anyone to kill...
HUGE DIFFERENCE.
Post by Cynic
On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 09:05:19 +1000, "Neil Boss"
Post by Neil Boss
Is it not intolerant of Muslims to expect others to give up their way of
life and to force them to bend the rules to accomodate their views? When has
say Saudi Arabia allowed non-Muslims to build temples, churches, etc. in
that country and to preach? Can't have it all one way.
Muslims do not yeild but take all the time and it is about time a stance was
taken.
IIUC there are bars selling alcohol in Saudi Arabia that their own
citizens are not permitted to use. They are permitted only for the
benefit of foreigners.
If the UK government did a similar thing in the UK, I expect it would
cause a huge amount of outrage.
--
Cynic
Cynic
2006-09-17 10:28:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hoss Spence
So tell me why is Islam at war with: Christianity (US,Europe, Egypt
coptics, Africa, Indonesia), Hinduism (Kashmir), Judaism(all over),
Budhism (Taliban (statues), Thailand), Animists(Africa), Athiests
(Chechnia)
Lets face it... they're haters.
I can't think of any other religion quite like them. They're not even
trying to convert anybody... they just seem to want to kill in the name
of a make believe god.
I also don't' understand the apologist leftists in Europe and the US.
Say what you want
about our Evangelicals... they're not attacking anyone or inciting
anyone to kill...
HUGE DIFFERENCE.
Of *course* we are attacking people and inciting violence - and the
number of people we kill makes the terorist attacks carried out by
Muslims pale into insignificance.

I'm surprised that the various wars we have started over the past few
decades have all escaped your notice.
--
Cynic
Max Muir
2006-09-18 06:45:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cynic
On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 09:05:19 +1000, "Neil Boss"
Post by Neil Boss
Is it not intolerant of Muslims to expect others to give up their way of
life and to force them to bend the rules to accomodate their views? When has
say Saudi Arabia allowed non-Muslims to build temples, churches, etc. in
that country and to preach? Can't have it all one way.
Muslims do not yeild but take all the time and it is about time a stance was
taken.
IIUC there are bars selling alcohol in Saudi Arabia that their own
citizens are not permitted to use. They are permitted only for the
benefit of foreigners.
That doesn't seem to be correct.

http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Saudi_Arabia
"Possession of alcohol and preaching religions other than Islam may
result in imprisonment and corporal punishment. The importation and use
of alcohol, pork products, pornography, religious books and materials
(other than those relating to Islam) is forbidden. Travellers have been
detained on arrival in Saudi Arabia when police have detected the aroma
of alcohol on their breath."
==

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=32856

An article in the Christian Science Monitor, May 10 2001,
http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2001/05/10/fp7s2-csm.shtml
says "150,000 cases of spirits, most of it Scotch whisky, are smuggled
into the country every year, with resulting profits of $200 million.
Industry experts believe that 70 percent is consumed by Saudis and the
rest by expatriates... ...80 percent of the smuggled alcohol comes
from the United Arab Emirates. Another 18 percent arrives by the tiny
Persian Gulf island of Bahrain, via the causeway linking it to Saudi
Arabia." A bottle of whisky (Johnnie Walker Black Label) can fetch
$200.

==
Post by Cynic
If the UK government did a similar thing in the UK, I expect it would
cause a huge amount of outrage.
Actually there are many, many bars in the UK, and
Muslims are free to use them, under the usual
constraints.
Post by Cynic
--
Cynic
Cynic
2006-09-18 07:26:04 UTC
Permalink
On 17 Sep 2006 23:45:16 -0700, "Max Muir"
Post by Max Muir
Post by Cynic
IIUC there are bars selling alcohol in Saudi Arabia that their own
citizens are not permitted to use. They are permitted only for the
benefit of foreigners.
That doesn't seem to be correct.
IIUC (and I have only hearsay evidence), the bars are for the use of
specific groups of foreign workers and are situated on their company's
premisis. A normal tourist is subject to the same laws as a native.
Post by Max Muir
Post by Cynic
If the UK government did a similar thing in the UK, I expect it would
cause a huge amount of outrage.
Actually there are many, many bars in the UK, and
Muslims are free to use them, under the usual
constraints.
And are there any bars where a Muslim could go with no problem, but
you would be arrested for setting foot inside?
--
Cynic
Max Muir
2006-09-19 09:37:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cynic
On 17 Sep 2006 23:45:16 -0700, "Max Muir"
Post by Max Muir
Post by Cynic
IIUC there are bars selling alcohol in Saudi Arabia that their own
citizens are not permitted to use. They are permitted only for the
benefit of foreigners.
That doesn't seem to be correct.
IIUC (and I have only hearsay evidence), the bars are for the use of
specific groups of foreign workers and are situated on their company's
premisis. A normal tourist is subject to the same laws as a native.
I think you are mistaken. The bars are in the hotels
and may be patronised by Saudis at will.

http://www.allstays.com/NearEast/saudi-arabia-hotels.htm
Abha Inter-Continental Hotel - €€€€
PO Box 1447, Abha, 966-7-224-7777
business center - pool - restaurant - bar - fitness center
==
Al Ahsa Inter-Continental Hotel - €€€€
Al Malik Khalid Street Al Hofuf, P.o.box 5399, + 966 (3) 584 0000
bar - pool - restaurant
==
Al Faisaliah Hotel
P.o. Box 4148, Riyadh, 966 1 273-2000
bar - business center - pool - restaurant - fitness center
==
Riyadh Inter-Continental Hotel - €€€€
Mather Street, Riyadh, 966-1-465-5000
bar - business center - pool
==
Golden Tulip Al Hamra Hotel Dammam
POB 1411, Dammam 31431, +966 03 8333444
bar - lounge - free high-speed internet
Check Hotel Rates & Information | Hotel Reviews
==
Crowne Plaza Hotel Jeddah
PO Box 10924, Jeddah, 966-2-6611000
Discount Rate! - bar - business center - pool - restaurant
==
Jeddah Inter-Continental Hotel - €€€€
PO Box 41855 , Jeddah, 966-2-66-11-800
Discount Rate! - bar - business center - pool
==
Marriott Jeddah
Palestine Road & King Fahd Street, Jeddah, 966-2-6714000
bar - business center - pool - restaurant - fitness center
==

Etc.

And here's my link showing that Saudis
drink alcohol.

An article in the Christian Science Monitor, May 10 2001,
http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2001/05/10/fp7s2-csm.shtml
says "150,000 cases of spirits, most of it Scotch whisky, are smuggled
into the country every year, with resulting profits of $200 million.
Industry experts believe that 70 percent is consumed by Saudis and the
rest by expatriates... ...80 percent of the smuggled alcohol comes
from the United Arab Emirates. Another 18 percent arrives by the tiny
Persian Gulf island of Bahrain, via the causeway linking it to Saudi
Arabia." A bottle of whisky (Johnnie Walker Black Label) can fetch
$200.
Post by Cynic
Post by Max Muir
Post by Cynic
If the UK government did a similar thing in the UK, I expect it would
cause a huge amount of outrage.
Actually there are many, many bars in the UK, and
Muslims are free to use them, under the usual
constraints.
And are there any bars where a Muslim could go with no problem, but
you would be arrested for setting foot inside?
Nothing so innocuous! In the UK Muslim gangs
are above the law because our police are too
afraid of PC Nazis condemning them for racism.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2090-1975682_1,00.html
"The reluctance of police to tackle ethnic criminals
has allowed gangs
to operate with impunity in areas of Scotland, the
north of England and
parts of London. "
==
http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/Islam%20exposed/sweden-norway-rape.html
"Muslim Rape Epidemic in Sweden and Norway - Authorities Look the Other

Way"
==
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2102470.stm
"Gangs of Asian youths in the north of England are out
of control, claims a Labour MP."

Further, Saudis can throw British nurses off balconies
and torture Britons with impunity. In short, Muslims
are above the law.

Max Muir
Post by Cynic
--
Cynic
Cynic
2006-09-19 09:44:40 UTC
Permalink
On 19 Sep 2006 02:37:37 -0700, "Max Muir"
Post by Max Muir
Post by Cynic
IIUC (and I have only hearsay evidence), the bars are for the use of
specific groups of foreign workers and are situated on their company's
premisis. A normal tourist is subject to the same laws as a native.
I think you are mistaken. The bars are in the hotels
and may be patronised by Saudis at will.
As said, I have only heard this but have no direct knowlege. Maybe I
was incorrectly informed, or maybe it was the case at one time but not
any longer.
--
Cynic
JVB
2006-09-18 13:18:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Max Muir
Post by Cynic
On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 09:05:19 +1000, "Neil Boss"
IIUC there are bars selling alcohol in Saudi Arabia that their own
citizens are not permitted to use. They are permitted only for the
benefit of foreigners.
That doesn't seem to be correct.
http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Saudi_Arabia
"Possession of alcohol and preaching religions other than Islam may
result in imprisonment and corporal punishment. The importation and use
of alcohol, pork products, pornography, religious books and materials
(other than those relating to Islam) is forbidden. Travellers have been
detained on arrival in Saudi Arabia when police have detected the aroma
of alcohol on their breath."
==
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=32856
An article in the Christian Science Monitor, May 10 2001,
http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2001/05/10/fp7s2-csm.shtml
says "150,000 cases of spirits, most of it Scotch whisky, are smuggled
into the country every year, with resulting profits of $200 million.
Industry experts believe that 70 percent is consumed by Saudis and the
rest by expatriates... ...80 percent of the smuggled alcohol comes
from the United Arab Emirates. Another 18 percent arrives by the tiny
Persian Gulf island of Bahrain, via the causeway linking it to Saudi
Arabia." A bottle of whisky (Johnnie Walker Black Label) can fetch
$200.
Post by Cynic
If the UK government did a similar thing in the UK, I expect it would
cause a huge amount of outrage.
Actually there are many, many bars in the UK, and
Muslims are free to use them, under the usual
constraints.
Post by Cynic
--
Cynic
Ref Bahrain, I worked there in the build up to desert storm, Yes the hotels
have bars, the intercontinental was great. Every time saddam threw out the
UN weapons inspectors guess where they came to, yes you've guessed correctly
Bahrain, real puzzler that one LOL.
Many Saudi's came to Bahrain (Thurday nights) and it was not just for the
nightlife!!!, the king fahad causeway was cluttered with them, the Hilton
was quite popular too, the local royal family lived there. Of course people
we not allowed to drink on the street, only in their own homes or hotels.

Some expats i spoke to in Saudi, (Back there for the big one into Iraq) had
a liquid called SID ? pure alcohol mixed with non acoholic canned drink. I
often wonder what muslems do for night time entertainment due to their
religion (No drink allowed???) here in the UK.

These devout hypocrites really take the biscuit.

JVB
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